Dawn of War Codex

Hello everyone and welcome to yet another thread with some balance thoughts and my general approach and what I generally "plan" on trying to fiddle around with.

Now, first and foremost - These are going to be some radical and generally abit straying away from some of the general core-gameplay you might have come accustomed to, and it's important that you raise your opinion if you believe my personal take is justified, or reasonable.

Let's start off with

General Fundemental Gameplay from the 1v1 perspective
Now, first and foremost, some of the changes that I have listed in the tentative balance changelog will most likely have a larger implication and changes made to the 1v1 bracket, but I'm not expecting a large overhaul on how it's going to play out. I haven't posted the absolute recent changelog, but if you see the changelog now - you might notice some things are abit "rad", but some of them I have decided to remove flat-out because I've been undecided /and/or I don't see them transitioning well into overall gameplay.

So what's being changed?
I posted a while ago that I wanted to restrain some of the issues with how severely you are punished, from say - genbashes and alike. However, with certain proposed changes such as reduced costs on power, or less penalty on your commander. You're ineveitably also having a large influence in how 2v2 and 3v3 are being played out. Timings and overall factions will have a bigger pay-off from certain timings compared to others, so I'm not inclined to change those aspect of the game.

Instead, I'm looking into the overall settings based on 1v1/2v2/3v3 and reworking "less-used" globals and transitioning them into more "useful" ones. However, this also leads to issue - and that is replacing them with useful ones. Of course, you could make them buff-oriented, or you could try to replace them with another unit-global call-in, or make them more "unique", akin to the soon-to-be Chosen Plague Marines, or the existing Inquisitior Banewolf for an example.

These units define abit of the characteristics of the Hero. And an example I've been fiddling with is Loyalty to the End. It's a real hit/miss global - but largely, it's abit buggy in how it's being executed for the most part. It can remain for longer then intended for some odd reason, and that effects the overall effiency of the global. Now, to define the character of the Lord Commissar, I've been tinkering with replacing with it abit of "Guardsmen Conscripts", which are just going to be extremely cheap, but numerous Guardsmen. Of course, you could amplify their effiency through the execute. They shouldn't be a no-brainer unit however, but if you're a player who likes to utilize execute more then the shield, you've got an alternative playstyle.

However, that's probably now for the next update, and most likely for the future. But the general idea is that you've got abit more versatile playstyle esp in the 1v1 department, wheras in the 2v2/3v3s department, the somewhat cumbersome performance of the conscripts will be more an "oh-shit I need some repairs/more cannon-fodders", since Guardsmen would be more overall battle-efficient. However, with their respective cost being so cheap, you could easily cover alot of ground, and ease up some of your timing effiency on your T1.5 purchases, or allow for even faster T2 techs. It's alot of theorycrafting needed, but I hope you get a general idea of what the intended unit role is to be. Mere cannon-fodder that works well with the Commissar Lord assets.

I used this abit of an example, and it's something I started tinkering with the Plague of Undeath, and I'm fairly sure there's alot of other misc. globals/abilities that are just flat-out flawed by design that could do with reworks to make the games more fun, and filled with variety, yet flexibility.

1v1 compared to 2s and 3s in terms of gameplay
One thing to consider is that in 1s, you've got a harder time to reach T3, since the game is almost ultimately decided by how the early-game goes, and how the skirmishes in T2 plays off. 3s are ALOT more forgiving, and you can generally just get "carried" by playing passive and hoard up resources to field the super-late game units. These are both abit of a problematic thing to adjust. It's something I tried to fiddle with a few patches ago, but it's more of a babystep to adjusting things. This patch we're getting now is another step yet towards adjusting 1s and 3s performance and aligning them more with each other in how teching is done.

One faction that has generally alot of problems reaching late-game is Imperial Guard in 1v1s. Alot of that boils down to how their power-cost is dumped towards their mid-game in order to stay competetive. And of course, with their dumps in T2, you also pour alot of popcap towards their overall battle effiency. And if you end up over 85 in popcap in mid-game, there's no reason to go into T3, unless you purposefully sacrifice units (which results in feeding exp and levels) to field a Leman/Kaskrin/Baneblade. So, overall the effiency of the IG units in T2 needs to be re-adjusted so that they can stay competetively with less overall units needed. Now, this isn't to say there's just nothing but straight up buffs towards them - but the point is that, some factions work better design-wise, whereas some others just need to be brought up on par, not the other way around.

I'll try to add more towards the topic, but overall - I just want you to know, whilst the changelog may seem massive. I want to try to preserve the gameplay of Dawn of War 2 as much as possible without making it into a completely brand new "mod" that differentiates and alienates people who are used to the formula. It's always been in my best interest to add more variety and strategies for the players, without compromising the experience. Hench, why we've had some betas to see how things pan out, and some things have been a hit, but there are also some misses in there, such as the Brood mechanics.

So bare with me on some of the upcoming changes if they get added in. They can always get revoked, reworked or scrapped and we're back to normal. But the most important I can think of is that I recieve as much community feedback, becaues I'm not doing this for myself anymore, I'm doing this for the players.

Looking forward to see wha'ts surprisingly new under your sleeve *Claps*

Is this the end result of the Ogryns changes ?

Anyway, sounds interesting. Can't really say much more than that right now.

HandSome SoddiNg wrote:Looking forward to see wha'ts surprisingly new under your sleeve *Claps*

Pretty much.
Although I would like to ask the community if I am the only one who thinks that unit call-in is exactly what would rather be reduced and possibly replaced with actual "abilities"? I understand that some of the existing abilities may be rather impractical and/or pretty bad, but is it the answer, to replacing them by even more units?

The problem with IG is that, at least in my eyes, they were blatantly designed to be played in 3v3 but not 1v1. To try and use IG competitively in 1v1 is just trolling epitomised, at least in relic's eyes. In retail as of now IG are by far the worst race. Nobody whatsoever uses them post 1.6k elo, they're just terrible. Everything is so predictable and they're forced into the same build orders game in, game out. All they have is sentinels and overpowered catachans (which are only overpowered because of buggy patching on Relic's behalf) and the chimera. These things are all very predictable and thus very easy to counter before the game even gets going. The IG has no alternative and that's why at 1.6k elo nobody plays IG anymore since at that level the players know how to perfectly deal with IG so the game is over before it even starts.

They're so poorly designed.

Introducing a race into dawn of war with no jump troops, no artillery, no sub-commander and no melee in t1. What is that all about? I honestly think IG need a subcommander if they want any hope of being on the same level as the other races. A psyker could do so much to help IG transition into T2 without having to drop so much power, or at least to circumvent their bleed. It would be nice if in general IG bleed on the whole was reduced but sunk costs increased (or not if not necessary) as that seems to fit in with the whole mantra of IG. At the moment they have huge sunk costs (especially in T2) but then they go and bleed ceaselessly too.

Well all I know is that toil can beat the shit out of anyone with his LG.

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I think Imperial Guard really needs to take a cue from their tabletop counterpart and make T2 more relevant as such.

How?

Imperial guard rely on mass infantry or good armor. Currently T2 IG is focused on elite troop units like Ogryns, Stormtroopers, etc. which arguably do not help overcome most of their T1 woes, Manticores which cost horrible power and are either ridiculously OP or ridiculously UP depending on map..

I doubt fixing IG is possible by just 'fixing' these units per se, because they aren't broken. They just aren't very relevant to the problem with the exception of Ogryns, who are getting the very small buff they needed anyway.

IG need a light T2 tank. Give them the Hellhound tank, with the option to upgrade to a Bane Wolf or Devil Dog. Watch them become a million times more interesting.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:A psyker could do so much to help IG transition into T2 without having to drop so much power, or at least to circumvent their bleed.

What kind of abilities would you put on that psyker though? In context of reducing bleed, should it be something defensive?

On a side note, funny how it was suggested at one point that IG "psyker" could be a psyker chorus, which is, unfortunately, something that bleeds by design (amount of bleed can be adjusted though).

Another side note, I remember how back in retail people complained about braindead powerless IG builds doing well despite being absolutely predictable, although they were considered reliant on what they can do early still...

EDIT:

@ above: this is something we can already test by playing INQ. Although it seems that BW is pretty powerful atm, but arguably for all the wrong reasons...

Also couldn't resist an urge to post that TT IG actually relies on vets and Vendetta spam ^_^

Tabletop meta changes from edition to edition. Spamming fliers and special wepaons is not a tactic exclusive to IG, it's just the current edition meta cheese. I was referring to the IG army in general through editions.

Not commenting on balance, but I certainly wont complain about more commander specific units.
I think having a ( more ) cannon fodder unit for IG, like Whiteshields or a Penal Legion unit would be very noice.

Orkfaeller wrote:Not commenting on balance, but I certainly wont complain about more commander specific units.
I think having a ( more ) cannon fodder unit for IG, like Whiteshields or a Penal Legion unit would be very noice.

And how would these units behave like in terms of gameplay? Like Ripper usage or something? Where they Valkyrie drop and under commissar execution become immune to suppresion with increased speed etc?

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Introducing a race into dawn of war with no jump troops, no artillery, no sub-commander

they do have artillery, just more expensive than the normal.

I've noticed the pop cap issues of IG, maybe is possible to decrease some of the squads pop? dunno

Yeey for Caeltos' thoughts! ^^

That Torpid Gamer wrote:In retail as of now IG are by far the worst race.

Retail IG is (one of) the best race...

You're kidding right Riku?

Maybe you should take a trip back down memory lane into retail?

I mean the libby singlehandedly makes the SM vs IG MU hopeless.
Eldar 1khp shields alongside shurikens with an IG that lacks spotters is lol.
Tyranids are tyranids and the flying rippers certainly don't help your chimera (which itself is more expensive, although the UBER catachans do help in this MU). I forgot about lulwut zoanthropes.
Orks have improved big shootas so sentinels do so little it's absurd. I forgot about lulwut stikkbommas.
Retail chaos is retail chaos.

I'm very excited to see what direction you take the mod in.

Given what you said in your post, I'd like to plug Lulgrim's idea from the drop pod thread (I.e. making it so the SM drop pod can deep strike a SM infantry unit, already purchased at the base, for additional cost in zeal).

Just thought it was a really neat derivation on your current Tac drop idea.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:You're kidding right Riku?

Maybe you should take a trip back down memory lane into retail?

I mean the libby singlehandedly makes the SM vs IG MU hopeless.
Eldar 1khp shields alongside shurikens with an IG that lacks spotters is lol.
Tyranids are tyranids and the flying rippers certainly don't help your chimera (which itself is more expensive, although the UBER catachans do help in this MU). I forgot about lulwut zoanthropes.
Orks have improved big shootas so sentinels do so little it's absurd. I forgot about lulwut stikkbommas.
Retail chaos is retail chaos.

Tell that to Edtjuh, rofl.



Now be real, facing IG was a nightmate worse than orks & nids in retail, especially with how their uber repair rate could tank everything and sents completely owning T1 and las-turrets camps on your genfarm that you could not avoid at all.

I have mixed feelings about LTTE going. On the one hand it was so situational that I used it once in a blue moon and even then only when it wasn't even a very fair match up since I figured I could test it out and see how it works in a favorable position with the most favorable variables (Carapace armor, 2 X guardsmen with a chimaera or a medical bunker). In a serious match i'd save all my red for flare and Rocket run. On the other hand, I think some kind of rework like how Angels of Death received may have been more welcome. Maybe it could be worked into a piece of war gear but useable a single unit buff? I doubt that will happen but I try my damned hardest to incorporate all tools given to me and i'd hate to lose one, even if it was impractical.

This idea of a troop call in, though, is exciting. Commie doesn't get any surprise reinforcements or any unique ambush strategies. Are you considering making them temporary like CL bloodletters global but LOTS? like 3 squads of vanilla guardsmen? Or fewer but permanent like the new Drop Pod?

Discreet wrote:

Orkfaeller wrote:Not commenting on balance, but I certainly wont complain about more commander specific units.
I think having a ( more ) cannon fodder unit for IG, like Whiteshields or a Penal Legion unit would be very noice.

And how would these units behave like in terms of gameplay? Like Ripper usage or something? Where they Valkyrie drop and under commissar execution become immune to suppresion with increased speed etc?

Just throwing ideas out there(like so many Guardsmen to the meatgrinder )

Penal Legion:

Starts out as a unit of ten Penal Legionaries and they're armed with an assortment of lasguns, knives, laspistols and chainswords(hell might throw in an autogun just to complete the rag-tag nature of the unit).
Once called in they would have access to three mutually exclusive upgrades
(Think Stormtrooper kits).

1. Gunslingers: Arms everyone with "better" lasguns and grants them Shitty Repair(read:Non-Guardsmen). This would work nicely for those times when you lose a GM squad in t1 and need to plug the gap. They would be worse at everything than a GM squad but keeping a GM squad alive is its own reward.

2. Psychopaths: Arms everyone with Chainswords(No Laspistol) and gives them Melee Resistance and an ability called: Psychotic Rage which breaks suppression but does not grant immunity. This is your counter-initiation squad that should help with tying up enemy jump squads and other melee problems.

3. Knifefighters: Arms everyone with dual knives and gives them plus 1 speed and a melee charge. I don't know if it's a good idea to give them power melee but that's not something I've given enough thought. These would act as your flanking unit and possible backcapper.

Viggih, that is truly grimdark. I love it.

After all, "even a man who has nothing, can still give his life."

Would love to see each comm get a unique unit!

Cadian Whiteshields would propably be relatively easy to do and fitting for a low quality throw away squad.
Just Guardsmen stripped of all the cool bits, rebreather, grenades, knives etc and a stripe on top.



Alternatively something like that

Magus Magi wrote:Viggih, that is truly grimdark. I love it.

After all, "even a man who has nothing, can still give his life."

Thank you, I aim to please.


+++Thought for the day+++

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt

Now thats a pretty cool penal legionary (....heh..... Penal....) thats very much in the flavor of commisars. Much more than white shields.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Penal_Legion#.Uz-s0d9BvbW

Edtjuh's IG play was superb even in the highest lvl of play. Nem OK was a pretty good high lvl IG player iirc. Not to forget NoisyPega and Toiletlaileileilee

Id much rather see a special unit of commissars for the lord comissar.Cadet Comis with power swords. =O t2 call in leader who gets power fist in t3

Nah, elite squads are boring. What we need is a truly expendable unit to tie up other units that can synnergize with the commisar through the use of execution.

[TLV]Soul_Drinkers wrote:Id much rather see a special unit of commissars for the lord comissar.Cadet Comis with power swords. =O t2 call in leader who gets power fist in t3

Everybody must have power melee squad now with fist in T3 it seems...

Metron wrote:Nah, elite squads are boring. What we need is a truly expendable unit to tie up other units that can synnergize with the commisar through the use of execution.

While we are at it, we could use a look at basic execution at list, what do you think?

huehue. ig is the one race who needs a special unit the most

I was thinking about Conscripts and Penal Legion a while ago, waiting for presenting my idea to the community.

I think that making the Conscripts just a weaker and numerous squad of Guardsmen will be wasting their potential.

We should, i believe, give them abilities that are in tone with the unit but give them a role of a real meatshield and tool for "staying power", as i like to call it... an option to have a composition that is less poke-and-retreat as i found IG to be a little too much right now.

When i was thinking about them they were a Tier 2 unit, not a call-in unit, but maybe you can find some inspirations.

Anyway the idea was to make them an expensive unit to deploy but an insanely cheap one to reinforce (something like 2-3 requisition per model).
No special weapons, no upgrades. Just their flashlight.

Two ability:
- Call the Next Wave: Long countdown (1 minute? 2 minutes? Anyway, long), reinforce conscripts on the spot.
- Get Down!: The unit suppress itself, but in exchange they get a huge reduction from anything AoE and a modest one from ranged attacks.

Why that?
Because they don't have a real attack power, but they work well with other IG composition and make them stay a little more on the field absorbing a modest amount of AoE (that is the bane of IG unless Ogryns) and firepower.

I think about Penal Legion too, as a melee variant of the first one with different abilities, but i know my ideas are not popular so i'm not wasting my and your time writing it down.

Since hakon, here, found out how to tie abilities (passives) to beeing in cover, maybe thats something that could be used for Conscripts.

I've been thinking about something along the lines of CoH2's Osttruppen.
Those are like really cheap throwaway units for the Germans.

They are very squishy, and dont hit all that well, but they get big boni when put in hard cover.

So, if you just put them one on one in an open field battle against another unit, they are almost guaranteed to lose.
But allow them to entrech themselves, and they can be suprisingly hard to force off.

This bonus-when-in-cover abilties are something Id really enjoy to see in multiplayer, and I think conscripts might be a good unit to experiment with.

__

Also in CoH2, you could call in these crappy units as "relieve infantry".
Meaning, if you lost alot of your actual main infantry, within a time window, you would get these crappy replacement units for "consolation",
Might be hard to implement though.