NM & Set-up Teams

[FiSH]

I am fine with noise marines disabling ranged weapons. However, I do not like how they de-setup set-up teams with a split second of ranged fire.

Consider this situation - Heretic + NM vs any ranged hero (who's rushing to support the setup team from away) + one suppression team (already set up). All types of worships are helpful to get NM get off that split second of damage onto the set-up team, and boom! Just like that, heretics can now get into melee. It does not matter whether the ranged hero comes to support in time by force meleeing the noise marines - a play that should be rewarded by forcing off NM and tics, but is not currently the case.

Disabling ranged weapons is one thing, de-setting set-up teams (and thus, to an extent, having a overlapping functionality with raptors) is another.


On a side note, I think cacophony should be activated in a manner similar to purgatus - so that you can toggle in on, and then off, and it will go on cooldown. As it is, the ability has little tactical use, and is usually just used as a get-out ability. This is something I don't feel strongly about, however, and thought it will be interesting to see what people thought.

[Torpid]

Where is the rest of your army? Honestly I think NM are fine, I find them pretty shitty in all MUs and just love when my foe buys them. Two set-up teams makes NM play rather redundant.

Suppression teams counter nm 1v1, while bleeding a fair bit less. I mean in theory if they had a havoc that plus tics would counter your set-up team too. Do havocs overlap then with raptors?

[crazyman64335]

the main issue i have with noise marines isn't even that they instant deactivate ranged weapons, it's that they cancel abilities, such as grenades and such. they basically counter anything that throws grenades at them. That's my only complaint with the unit as a whole

[FiSH]

@ Torpid
- Where is the rest of my army?
I just wrote a fictional scenario just to illustrate my point.

- NM are shitty in all MU & Set-up teams make NM play rather redundant.
I disagree. For example, NM disabling "Explosive Shot" from scouts can be huge. NM are more than viable against double shotgun builds (which, for example, TM players often do to if they get out ASMs to make up for the limited support for ASMs TM has). Besides, CS can completely nullify set-up teams. Replay that shows both points I made here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jywlfAKdTDY
Finally, going double set-up teams will shutdown NM regardless of this change that I've proposed. Thus, I find this point you raised to be not a counter-argument to my case.

- Do havoks overlap with raptors?
I said NM has, to an extent, an overlapping functionality with raptors. This statement is much weaker than suggesting that NM and raptors overlap. Furthermore, this was from the sense that they can both de-setup setup teams. Havoks cannot do this. So no. They can both suppress though, so I guess that's nice.


@ Crazyman64335
- The issue with NM is that they cancel abilities.
I think that's actually the real saving grace of NM. In a sense, they're a support unit that comes with "Canticle of Absolution" for ranged abilities, which allows for creative plays.

[Torpid]

Havocs make enemy set-up teams useless from a far greater distance than NM can and usually at reduced bleed too. That was my point and that's why NM are meh. Double devs and double shotgun scouts is probably what a TM should be doing vs CS/CL, snipers instead of shotguns vs the PC. I don't see what the NM would do in that scenario really.

[Ace of Swords]

Noise marines are fine, despite what you say they are indeed vulnerable to ranged damage, focus them quickly with the hwt and focus fire them, they will quickly lose model and you won't even need to tie them up to deal with them.

And also cacophony has a great usage, the most obvious is that it synergizes with the cl and vehicles, the second is that it can block off melee blobs while your ranged units focuses said blob, or even useful to stop channeling runes/a wb runnig towards your havoc etc.

Aside from that I also don't think they overlap with raptors, nm are meant to move with your army, annoy the enemy making-split all of his units since they provide some pretty good AOE damage, while raptors are better at intercepting ranged blobs (mass shootas,3 DA etc) and then let your hero/tics close in.

The only thing I would change is beign able to retreat out of cacophony, it will still retain it's old uses but it will need some more thinking as they will become vulnerable to nades and ranged fire like that.

[Arbit]

If it looks like the NM are going for a frontal assault on your HWT, have something (anything) force melee on them so they can't fire.

[FiSH]

If it looks like the NM are going for a frontal assault on your HWT, have something (anything) force melee on them so they can't fire.

Thanks for L2P I guess? This is exactly the situation I described in the OP...

[Arbit]

If it looks like the NM are going for a frontal assault on your HWT, have something (anything) force melee on them so they can't fire.

Thanks for L2P I guess? This is exactly the situation I described in the OP...

Are you referring to this?

It does not matter whether the ranged hero comes to support in time by force meleeing the noise marines - a play that should be rewarded by forcing off NM and tics, but is not currently the case.

I guess I'm not clear on what exactly you meant by this. If your "ranged hero comes to support in time by force meleeing the noise marines" (emphasis mine), then the NMs won't unsetup your setup because NM don't have fire on the move. But you're saying that doesn't happen or something?

[FiSH]

The situation I was trying to describe is if the noise marines get off one blast at the set-up team, it doesn't matter even if you tie up the noise marines because the set-up team is already un-setup. I suppose my wording could have been better.

What I was trying to point out with that example is, if the force melee on NM were even a second late, you'd have to pay greatly, because setting up again takes 3~4 seconds.

[Torpid]

And if you don't see a manticore shot a manticore can wipe your entire army in seconds. Manticores OP, can't believe they cost 90 power in elite mod!

The example is too niche and too reliant on misplaying to be convincing.

[Raffa]

It is very rare you can fit Noise Marines effectively into your army composition. The best example I can think of is when IG buys Catachans. Against all other races tbh you really only want 2 models to reduce your upkeep, like with havocs otherwise you are starving yourself of req needlessly.

It's like with heretics. What role do you want from them exactly? How many models do you need? If as PC a heretic squad loses 6+ models (which will likely happen at some point) they go to base on permanent worship duty, as far out as possible so that they heal stuff at base and for a good few seconds as they retreat or advance out. You only need one model for this, but two is safer and this is a huge turnover for such pathetically low upkeep. Same with NM and havocs - you only want the special weapon, don't spend your precious power on a model with a crappy bolter, which is terrible value for cost.

The great irony is that NM work best with the PC, but he already has the best genbasher in the game which is a purpose of NM, therefore making them a less desirable purchase.

[Dark Riku]

Noise marines aren't only used as genbashers... They disable ranged fire and abilities you know! :p They can be very effective in all MU's and have particularly great synergy with the CL. And yea, you don't want them with the full models and they don't need to be to be effective, similar to snipers/rangers. Only downside is that they can be more easily wiped. For the rest it's just advantages.
Nothing some micro can't handle ^^

[Sneery_Thug]

(Ok, first of all, I usually play against not high level players.)
Torpid is right - they can be focused down very fast, but if you play as CL - just move your CL under worship and NM right behind him - they will reach the target and shut down a range blob. Vs ASM they are good too: if you have 2 csm squads - use cacophony while focusing asm squad with 2 csm and smacking with your CL.
Blastmaster is a great atillery piece - fiering faster than plasma devs and misfires not that often.

AND, i guess, in contrast to other flamers, sonic weapon does not have any damage penalty to HI, so that NM do full damage to all the marines (is it so?)

[Nuclear Arbitor]

AND, i guess, in contrast to other flamers, sonic weapon does not have any damage penalty to HI, so that NM do full damage to all the marines (is it so?)

no, they do flamer damage.

[FiSH]

I started this thread in hopes of discussing a very specialized situation with NM. Although the example I gave was fictional, what really happened was I in a 3v3, where I was holding off nid swarm with a shuri, when I was flanked by NM, which I dealt with immediately, but the shuri was de-setup so my whole army had to retreat.

But it seems the thread derailed very quickly into an overall balance discussion of NM, which was not why I created the thread. Only relevant feedback I've gotten regarding the situation I wanted to discuss is that the situation is too niche to discuss... Maybe next time I create a thread I'll be more precise in what aspects I want to hear feedback on, and what I do not.

[Torpid]

Well in such a situation if your ally had another suppression team of his own there then there would have been no problem...

[FiSH]

Well in such a situation if your ally had another suppression team of his own there then there would have been no problem...

Or if it weren't for that de-setup thing, because I had the army composition and positioning to deal with nid swarm and NM. Honestly, I won't be surprised at all if this is an oversight from Relic.

[Torpid]

I wouldn't think so. NM would be terribly useless if it wasn't the case. Like I said early on in the thread, if the NM aren't in a position to flank then they cannot approach a set-up team that is already set-up. NM, unlike set-up teams have a shorter range and they don't slow down melee. So for all their boons they have some very clear weaknesses.

[Lulgrim]

AND, i guess, in contrast to other flamers, sonic weapon does not have any damage penalty to HI, so that NM do full damage to all the marines (is it so?)

no, they do flamer damage.

No, they have their own damage type...

[Nuclear Arbitor]

really?

http://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php? ... ic_blaster

it is there under weapons though.

[Lag]

I'd have to agree with FISH. De-setting it up is a bit lame. It was okay when Noise Marines + Tic Launchers were the only counters to setup teams in t1, but now that Raptors are in as well it seems like NM kinda counter set-up teams a bit too well. I don't think this is fixable though so not sure why the topic.

[Lulgrim]

really?

http://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php? ... ic_blaster

it is there under weapons though.

Wtf did we change it to flame at some point?? Reric added sonic blaster and sonic blastmaster damage types for Retarbution.

[Indrid]

Huh.

[Atlas]

I actually think NM work best with the Sorc because he can Sigil them behind setup teams or get to the gens faster. The CL works well too but for Sorc I like to just use double heretics for anti-melee since they are good for consumption as well.

[Sub_Zero]

I feel that noise marines are as good versus heavy infantry as they are versus light infantry. So what is up with it right now? Do they really do standard flamer_pvp damage? I am a bit confused.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

idk, someone with cope's will have to look into it. just glancing over the values it looks like they're nearly identical. the only thing i noticed was 1 to HI instead of 0.75 but it was like a 1 second glance.

[Wise Windu]

idk, someone with cope's will have to look into it. just glancing over the values it looks like they're nearly identical. the only thing i noticed was 1 to HI instead of 0.75 but it was like a 1 second glance.

Huge differences

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/damaget ... laster_pvp

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/damaget ... =flame_pvp

Maybe it was done for better anti-turret?

Edit: it is flame damage btw

[Nurland]

I am fairly certain that nm do flamer dmg. Nm sonic blaster had their own dmg type but I am under the impression it is not used (even in Retail)

[Commissar Vocaloid]

huh - according to the original sonic blaster pvp, noise marines would actually pretty shit gen bashers then. I'd probably have to agree with their inclusion as flame pvp as a means of dealing with turret play. I always thought they were classified as flame because of the codex page, but didn't realize there was this sonic blaster category.

Also, NM are just fine. I think they're a fantastic addition to a lot of builds, in particular and as it has been pointed out, CL. That being said, the fact that they can de-setup your setup team if fine as well - if they are able to march themselves close enough to do that without retaliation, I think there should be some reward/incentive for doing something so risky.