Dawn of War Codex

Hello there. With my recent interest in Elite developement I've noticed that meta changed a bit compared to early days, and it seems that not every change that happened is merely due to reworks and balance changes that occured, looks like people just started to explore more (or maybe indeed I'm just looking at things becoming more viable, I dunno ).

One such thing I was expecting (since early Retri retail, I guess) people to start using more is GM's deployable cover, but it doesn't look like it's happening.

It's clear that DoW2 is a lot about mobility, and those blocks just doesn't seem to be erected fast enough, what's with slow building time not helped by GMs just mucking about most of the time, trying to figure out pathing, which only gets harder as blocks are finished and new ones have less "access points" for GM's to get to them; tha'ts all while placing not enough blocks won't help really, especially later on as GM squads get really big. Being so much harder to drop on demand and not offereing the benefits that, say, energy shields provide, it's not hard to see why they aren't used as much despite IG being quite reliant on vulnerable GM squads in many instances.

I suggest to rethink the way they work. I understand benefits of basically free green cover, but before we can say how cool this is, we should probably make them practical to use at all outside of rare team game lanefest.

My main suggestions (assuming that any of that is doable ofc) are:

1) Tweak GM's build range so that they don't need to run around like Emperor knows who while building their cover;

2) Additionally, change deploying pattern so that individual sections are wider (and proportionally more resilent), and make the deployment work kinda like it is with energy shield, i.e.:

Old "pattern":

(first point you click) XXXX...XXX -> (second point)
Above, "X" are separate independant blocks, variable amount - as long as you like to build a lot.

New "pattern":

(first point)
(XXXXX)
|
V
(second point)

Above, (XXXXX) is a single object that looks like 5 (or another number, possibly dependant on whether sarge/commie upgrades are completed) blocks and probably has, say, 5 times the HP os a currently existing block (build rate could be tweaked though, of maybe this object may recieve an armor stat like Russes, for that end).

Thoughts?

P.S. If you have any records/replays of portable cover used nicely and making difference, especially in 1v1 as the most problematic mode when it comes to static defences, feel free to bring them

Barrogh wrote:1) Tweak GM's build range so that they don't need to run around like Emperor knows who while building their cover;

2) Additionally, change deploying pattern so that individual sections are wider (and proportionally more resilent), and make the deployment work kinda like it is with energy shield,

I agree to these points. Another problematic feature about the portable cover is that it can be crushed by any tanky unit. You invest a lot of time building it up only to see a Chaos Lord, Sentinel, Hive Tirant, Rhino or Brother-Captain crushing across it in T1. While being crushed is comprehensive, as Barrogh said it makes it a waste of time to build the lines up.

According to your second point, I'd make a suggestion: create an Aegis Defense Line model that replaces the Guardsmen unit's portable cover. For those who don't know what that is:





As it can be seen, its composition includes shorter and longer sections. They could be implemented in a way that the GM unit builds a short section first (about same size as a current portable cover block) then a longer section (about the size of three current portable blocks) then a short section again and so on, each of them taking the same time than a current portable cover block to be built.

Like this:
X= short section || XXX= long section
Start building point
|
X-XXX-X-XXX-X-XXX-etc...

That way the building time would be reduced, making them a bit more useful, and they would look pretty nicier I think.

Another option is using the Aegis Defence Line like an eldar energy shield as you said, creating a whole line of a long section with two short sections on each side, slightly bent to create a semi-circular guard post, but I like the Imperial Guard to be able of creating long walls and be different.

Aertes wrote:I agree to these points. Another problematic feature about the portable cover is that it can be crushed by any tanky unit. You invest a lot of time building it up only to see a Chaos Lord, Sentinel, Hive Tirant, Rhino or Brother-Captain crushing across it in T1.

That's kinda their job to crush cover though. Anyways, I don't feel that GM cover needs to be special. It's just needs to be useable, and the way I see it, in order to be useable it must be practical for GMs to entrench when firefight is immenent, and what I'm trying to do is to fugure out how to achieve it. I'm making comparisions with eldar energy shield because it works, and ultimate protection it provides isn't the only reason for that.
Not touching more sensetive matters, I would like to apply its useability to GM cover.

Aertes wrote:According to your second point, I'd make a suggestion: create an Aegis Defense Line model that replaces the Guardsmen unit's portable cover. For those who don't know what that is:

"Too much MSI, T-down".
Okay, seriosuly though, I don't think it's worth the hassle unless someone really has nothing better to do than modeling those ADLs...

Aertes wrote:As it can be seen, its composition includes shorter and longer sections. They could be implemented in a way...

Why bothering with it though? This isn't SimCity really, all we practically need is GMs being able to quickly deploy a cover and hide there, probably while being under fire already, without running around trying to make it to the building section and ending up on the wrong side of it in the end (I think that matters, correct me if I'm wrong), if in cover at all, given how even 3 sections are not enough to hide everyone as long as we consider size of GM squad despite the time it currently takes to deploy them.

Aertes wrote:...like an eldar energy shield <...> creating a whole line of a long section with two short sections on each side, slightly bent to create a semi-circular guard post...

I'm pretty sure that with energy shield it is just visual and in reality it's as rectangular as it gets.

Please, delete this one. Got "Quote" and "Edit" mixed up.

Barrogh wrote:

Aertes wrote:

Aertes wrote:As it can be seen, its composition includes shorter and longer sections. They could be implemented in a way...

Why bothering with it though? This isn't SimCity really

You're very right, i realized that shortly after posting it.

Just making the GM to build the blocks in sets of two (XX-XX-XX-etc) would be enough, double building speed would suffice i think.

Aertes wrote:Just making the GM to build the blocks in sets of two (XX-XX-XX-etc) would be enough, double building speed would suffice i think.

Well, as I've said in the OP, geometry of cover pieces (that would be amount of "blocks" in section) is open to discussion, and may very well depend on availability of srage/commie so that we can hide growing squad just as easily.

Although it seems that dynamic size will require creating 3 different abilities and make one replace another as squad gets upgraded, so...

I always thought it made more sense that they'd be laying sandbags for cover in battle, as opposed to trying to build concrete blocks.

Indrid wrote:I always thought it made more sense that they'd be laying sandbags for cover in battle, as opposed to trying to build concrete blocks.

I think 90% of the stuff thrown/shot/bludgeoned at Guardsmen can easily go through bags of sand and I never heard of any GM ever using sandbags

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

One trick with deployable cover is to deploy one or two pieces as an extension of pre-existing cover. If you then use you then adjust your camera angle so that the cover comes closer to the centre of the screen both vertically and horizontally (not easy to explain :S) it's quite easy to get a good 10 models sitting in green cover.

Discreet wrote:I think 90% of the stuff thrown/shot/bludgeoned at Guardsmen can easily go through bags of sand and I never heard of any GM ever using sandbags

Well, sandbags are heavy cover in the game the same as the concrete blocks. 90% of the stuff in WH40k would go through any cover. As for "and I never heard of any GM ever using sandbags" um wut? There are loads of examples in the Forgeworld/Citadel miniatures.

nd I never heard of any GM ever using sandbags

Heavy Weapon Team models in the TT even come with Sandbags.

@Indrid and Orkfaeller
I need to play TT one day and think before I speak T-T

Discreet.. You are fail :p

And this is why I try to avoid visuals and fluffy bits when possible, what's with people getting instantly distracted by shinies and starting to ignore the essence

what's really ironic about their current cover is that they're laying down dragon's teeth but they're light crush(?) so units like the chaos lord go right through things meant to stop tanks.

Well he is in Terminator armour :p

I think the building pattern is fine, and maybe even the build speed. The largest problem is as you say the Chaos Lord coming round the corner and breaking it all like a clumsy five year old.

Swiftsabre wrote:I think the building pattern is fine, and maybe even the build speed. The largest problem is as you say the Chaos Lord coming round the corner and breaking it all like a clumsy five year old.

Nothing wrong with that. It's what they do.

Weapons in 40k go right through sandbags? Not quite. Take our trusty boltgun. It fires a .75 inch MASS REACTIVE SHELL. As the bolt is programmed to explode inside whatever it hits, that means that it will explode the sandbag into a shower of debris (if the sandbag doesn't absorb the explosive force), not the fortunate guardsman behind it. Lasguns... not going to comment on their incredible destructive wrath.

Shootas are large-caliber assault rifles at worst and boltguns at best. If they are assault rifles, they comply to the same limitations that our guns have when trying to shoot people through sandbags. Firing explosive shells will yield the same results as the boltgun.

Discreet wrote:

Swiftsabre wrote:I think the building pattern is fine, and maybe even the build speed. The largest problem is as you say the Chaos Lord coming round the corner and breaking it all like a clumsy five year old.

Nothing wrong with that. It's what they do.

But I don't like it, it makes me cry.

Swiftsabre wrote:But I don't like it, it makes me cry.

There are people who can council you in these sort of things.

I might need some help with that Post Traumatic Chaos Lord Disorder.

Well, if build time is a problem, which I can agree with, just get the build time buffed, because the pathing wrecks any way of swiftly erecting concrete blocks (Yes Swift, but they are concrete, so it would take time). I know, but when did realism have bearing over 40k.

Swiftsabre wrote:I might need some help with that Post Traumatic Chaos Lord Disorder.

Well, if build time is a problem, which I can agree with, just get the build time buffed, because the pathing wrecks any way of swiftly erecting concrete blocks (Yes Swift, but they are concrete, so it would take time). I know, but when did realism have bearing over 40k.

Honestly, I'd rather have pathing addressed first, maybe by not forcing builders to be in contact with blocks, but rather go about it they same way they do with repairs. Other things I brought up are just aimed at lessening a hassle for a player. Adjusting build time when everything else works fine is probably easiest thing to do.

The reason I think the build speed should be increased is because pathing cannot be addressed, you can't change it.

Swiftsabre wrote:The reason I think the build speed should be increased is because pathing cannot be addressed, you can't change it.

Well, I didn't mean changing pathing directly.
One of the reason I brought up eldar shield is because of how it is built in practice.
Ability creates a single rectangular block that can easily be approached by everyone in the squad without mucking about too much and without anyone ending on the wrong side of it. That's why I suggest to replace individual small blocks GM place with a group of such blocks treated like a single rectangular piece of cover, then adjust HP and build time of the thing.

That would make pathing issues much less relevant, effectively addressing it.

I understand now, makes more sense.

It sounds nice indeed, but I still think that its good for eldar and imperial guard to have different cover building methods.

That's why I think that just an increase in the IG building speed, or making them build 2 blocks at a time, would be all that's needed.

I think anything that makes the process easier would be better.