Dawn of War Codex

we all know sentinels are pivotal for IG in t1, but we also know they become a huge pain in the ass in t2 to keep alive, and in many occasions they even become a liability.

I propose a t2 upgrade to change them into vehicle armor, adjust the hp if the entity accordingly and take away the ability to cap

Improved armor: 150req 50 power
-300 hp
-makes sentinel unable to decap
-swaps sentinel armor from heavy infantry to vehicle

so, a vanilla vehicle armor sentinel would be 450/50 with 400 hp
a vehicle armor sentinel with stomp would be 500/65 with 500 hp
a fully upgraded vehicle armor sentinel would be 600/90 with 500 hp

I think this would make Sentinel easier to take down since Lascannons and AV squads are usually already on there way. But then scaling later in the game when mid t2/t3 tanks start hitting the field would also make it even harder for them to scale well then it already is if you manage to keep the sentinel alive that long.

I did something rather similar to this in my MOD. Where in t2 the sentinels armor changed from heavy to super heavy infantry and adds a bit of HP. However if the stomp was bought then the armor upgrade couldn't be purchased and vice-versa. Since this upgrade would protect against piecing weapons, flame, melee and not take extra damage from inferno weapons. (I just checked the file in Elite, Inferno_pvp doesn't do extra damage to Super Heavy Infantry as I thought it did). But since you can get a decently tanky walker with this upgrade I viewed it as unbalanced to let it have a melee counter as well as this upgrade. This might spur some more ideas up or something.

I feel the real trouble is that even leveled sentinels have pretty low DPS in the endgame. You can keep a sentinel alive with good micro, or at least I've seen other people do it, because of its range and speed. A little extra health won't change that much in my opinion. However, unless you are facing heretics, guardsman, or other high model count units the dps on the sent isn't that great. And really, there are a lot of ways to kill those types of units. If I keep my sentinel alive to tier 3 I feel like its impact isn't worth the upkeep, with the possible exception of vehicle chasing.

I already did my suggestion about Sentinel, and was quite popular, so i re-write it.

I suggested that the actual Sentinel be model with the open chassis (we do have the model) and make an upgrade to the Armoured Sentinel (with the actual model).

This upgrade add HP and maybe change his armor in Super Heavy, but it cut off his speed (from 8 to around 6).

The idea is to give an alternative to less micro-oriented player.
Player with good micro can benefits more from the Scout Sentinel as it is fast and agile, and with missiles can really do a lot of damage.
Player with not-so-good micro or less risk-oriented players have a safer alternative, with a Sentinel that can survive some mistakes, but have also less probability to can take advantage of the enemy's mistakes.

This upgrade must not be a no-brainer choice; it must help low IG players without buffing the overall race.

I really don't see what the issue about losing sentinels is. You expect to lose sentinels. As you do expect to lose Bloodcrushers and DDs sooner or later (preferably later). The Sentinels are non bleeding single entities that dominate the earlier stages of the game by bleeding your opponent and allowing you to be aggressive without costing extra resources to you by bleeding.

And how can somebody actually say that sents do crappy damage later in the game. Missile launchers anyone? Those things are nice soft AV and absolutely melt infantry.

Why would there be AV out at that point? I know I wouldn't get any AV unless the enemy has vehicles. So if the IG hasn't gone for a Chimera, chances are I don't have lot of AV. I generally don't like getting the autocannon before I am either sure the enemy is not going for Hodorgryns or that I have enough other counters available to them if they are a possible threat.

In addition to this, with all the IG repair support. Vehicle armor sents are a "no thank you" for me at least. Just my opinion.

ChrisNihilus wrote:I already did my suggestion about Sentinel

Me too. In the boardagame you have Armoured Sentinels with more armor than normal ones, but unable to flank the enemy. I suggested exactly the same: giving them a T2 upgrade that makes them unable to decap but hardens their armor, and maybe improve their Pound to Ground to make it deal some damage (20 melee or so) in adition to the current effects.

Another option would be: giving the IG a separate option for T2: an Armoured Sentinel with those characteristics and maybe heavyer weapon options (lascannon, plasma cannon or autocannon maybe, following the boradgame ones)

I'm sorry for not being constructive, but is that you again, an "IG needs T2 tank" thread in disguise?

Thus far, Sentinal seems to be okay with me. Nothing greatly game breaking, UP or OP.

The Piss(le) Launchers for Sents are amazing IMO and their great for chasing down transport or vehicles in T3 or screwing with blobs in T2 and T3 etc

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

Sigh.... The Sent stomp already does 20 melee damage.

Dear god he's making thread suggestions and doesn't even play the game...

I play the game but I didn't memorize the codex page. Then make my suggestion be 40 melee damage on stomp for a possible Armoured Sentinel.

I also noticed that the weapons selection is fine as it is, since any alteration would overlap with leman russ or heavy weapon team, so a T2 upgrade sounds better to me than a new T2 sentinel with different weapons.

The stomp has 1 purpose. Disruption. Nothing more, nothing less. The damage buff is not needed at all.

just noticed GM seems to have double repair rate for sentinels, another thing they should lose if sentinel gets an upgrade to vehicle armor. Updated OP

Anyway a vehicle armor sentinel with those stats wouldn't be harder to take down than a transport, and in some ways it offers way less than a transport for the price, ofc it's a t1 unit so that's irrelevant. The proposal is just so you have the option to heavily invest in your sentinels if you so choose to. 150/50 is by far not an auto purchase upgrade, and it's quite a power sink

The sentinel would stay as it is, just a poking unit, 500hp (with stomp) it's enough to survive 2 shots from a lass cannon but other than that is still quite easy to take down. It is actually a nerf in survivability against AV weapons like venom broods and autocannons, but at least won't get insta gibbed by a plasma damage

Bahamut wrote:Anyway a vehicle armor sentinel with those stats wouldn't be harder to take down than a transport

That's the idea, sentinels are very far from being heavy combat vehices, but support and hit-and-run units. But from T2 on they are more like hit-and-die. If they are able to develop a punch and escape without beign destroyed it will be more than enough. Just making the enemy need real anti-vehicle weapons against them. Of course, it should be an expensive upgrade I think and cost a good amount of energy, since you'll be having a vehicle. Something like 90-R 70-E maybe?.

The sentinel usually is a unit that I create in T1 and don't create again if (when) they are destroyed. In T2 and T3 I can create new GM units, heavy weapons teams, catachans, but not sentinels because of their so low durability. An upgrade like that for T2 would help this unit to keep being useful without expert micro-management.

The stronger stomp was just a random idea.

I swear the person who comes up with a mostly-agreed upon way to make sentinels balanced deserves a Nobel prize. This has been ongoing since retail. And so has the "give sentinels vehicle armor" suggestion. Guys, don't you think the developers haven't considered that already?

My take on this situation are the following:

It's T2 that is the problem. Sents already have a T2 upgrade, so if you're willing to commit it to keeping it alive in T2 you're going to buy the upgrade. Why not add a ranged damage resistance aura to the missile launcher? 25% ranged damage reduction (and maybe bump up the price a tad) and that will keep everything that was viable before against it (sniper, plasma, inferno) still viable, but won't down it in the blink of an eye.

My second suggestion is somewhat more radical and maybe even impossible due to technical limitations. Come up with a brand new armor type. We have two T1 vehicles now, it seems like it can be worth the trouble so that it can balance both of them. Make a "light vehicle" armor that is not almost impervious to what it should be vulnerable to, (piercing, melee, power melee) but isn't annihilated by things that aren't true vehicle counters. And AV weapons should still do significant damage by keeping the mulitpliers high like 1 or 1.10. You would be able to fine tune what does how much damage to balance it, instead of trying to pigeonhole its current HI armor to something that doesn't really suit it.

Helios wrote:It's T2 that is the problem. Sents already have a T2 upgrade, so if you're willing to commit it to keeping it alive in T2 you're going to buy the upgrade. Why not add a ranged damage resistance aura to the missile launcher? 25% ranged damage reduction (and maybe bump up the price a tad) and that will keep everything that was viable before against it (sniper, plasma, inferno) still viable, but won't down it in the blink of an eye.

Not a bad idea either, to turn the "Missle Lancuher" upgrade into an "Armoured Sentinel" upgrade. Something like:

Armoured Sentinel
Upgrade
It changes the Sentinel's multilaser for a missile launcher with frag and krak missiles. It also changes the Sentinel's armor value to "vehicle", but removes it's decapture ability.

Well, give it vehicle armor, ranged damage resistance or whatever is more suitable.

I like your way, Helios.

I agree with about half of what Helios said.

Sentinels are so tremendously powerful in T1 against all races except (but still kinda including) Orks. If they didn't force the IG into being more careful with them in T2 you would lose your chance to exact payback for the pain they bring you early on; they can't be transitioning into some hard-to-kill beast after their best moments in T1.

Well-micro'd sentinels are still a bitch to take down even after T1 because they outrange plasma guns/TCSM/Dark Reapers/etc.. and get indirect fire. Don't forget they level very well so there's the extra HP from that too.

They don't need a damage reduction certainly, they're in no need of any buffs, side-grades or what have you. They're such a hard unit to balance and they're in as good a state as they've ever been.

However a new armour type for the Rhino and Sentinels would certainly be food for thought if someone could be bothered to draw up stats for it...

I actually wouldn't mind having sents in T2 be a little more survivable. They are still very useful from T2 and onwards at the moment though, with the missile upgrade and possibly even a repair bunker nearby. I'm just not sure on the figures and possible armor type change, ability to decap, gm repair bonus, etc.
It's something worth looking into I think. The upgrade cost also shouldn't be higher than 20-25 power, if it's 50 power it will just not get purchased at all ^^

Summarized: Small T2 survivability increase, with possible other adjustments.
Cost: ~100/20 -- 125/25 Preferably not to radical and fitting in the IG eco.

What about increase a bit the cost of the Missile Launcher upgrade, but now increases maximum HP by XXX?

Raffa wrote:Well-micro'd sentinels are still a bitch to take down even after T1.

That could be applied to almost any units. An expert player micro-managing any unit can make it much more powerful than it is by numbers, but I still think that the game shouldn't demand all players to be greater than great.

Mi opinion is that Sentinels are one of the units with worse transition from T1 to the following ones. Of course, they are still good and it wouldn't harm anyone if they were left like they are now, but as I said before, once the T1 sentinels are lost, one tends not to replace them and keep on with other units. That's a bit sad if one likes sentinels.

I think an armoured sentinel wouln'd harm anyone either, it could be a replacement for Chimeras in case the IG player wants a combat vehicle in T2.

In adition, if the Sentinel were to get an upgrade to armoured sentinel, then he should get a slight reduction of his speed (0.3 or 0.5 or so). since he would loose his weak spot. Otherwise he could become an annoying hit-and-run vehicle.

forget what i said about the GM repair, i'm a noob

Dark Riku wrote: The upgrade cost also shouldn't be higher than 20-25 power, if it's 50 power it will just not get purchased at all ^^

Yeah, but then you'd be getting a 400 vehicle armor walker for only 20 or 25 power which is cheaper than a lascannon dev, which sounds very weird, Anyway, Caeltos would have to approve the idea first and then revise the price for it

increasing their health means they spend more time getting repaired. the other thing is that a lot of weapons from t2 onwards do a LOT of damage to heavy infantry and so you would have to give them a fairly large amount to make a significant difference. this will end up throwing off piercing and melee.

Bahamut wrote:Yeah, but then you'd be getting a 400 vehicle armor walker for only 20 or 25 power which is cheaper than a lascannon dev, which sounds very weird, Anyway, Caeltos would have to approve the idea first and then revise the price for it

My suggestion wouldn't necessarily be vehicle armor either now would it?

Would it be plausible to just add a small buff that reduces incoming ranged damage? Not a substantial amount, but let's say they'd be able to survive a few extra shots from tscm or an extra lascannon shot, for example. That way you'd keep the armor type and allow units who were still effective against them to be still effective (i.e plasma).

Personally, my biggest irk with sentinels in T2 is that they really are dependent on micro and allow zero margin for error as they are the squishiest unit in the T2 IG roster, imho (ignoring the manticore, which is usually far behind lines anyway).

Edit: the %ranged protection coincide's with helios' comment earlier.

What exactly would be the point of adding a damage resistance effect instead of just adding HP? I thought the repair support was "too good" if anything as-is...

Lulgrim wrote:What exactly would be the point of adding an unintuitive damage resistance effect instead of just adding HP??

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:increasing their health means they spend more time getting repaired.

And why exactly is it unintuitive?

The problem isn't the HP, it's the fact that it's armor type makes it too vulnerable to things that aren't an issue in T1. When they're still CSM, A sent can weather 2 squads of them and is a very good sponge while Guardsmen repair it. Once they upgrade to Tzeentch, it needs constant babysitting because of how fast it gets shredded. And there is no trade off like normal HI units that can just get into cover or can retreat if they're getting heavily focused. Yeah the Sent can just run away, but it doesn't have a retreat mechanic. and before you say "It's a vehicle, it's not supposed to retreat" that simply further proves the point that it's a more micro intensive unit since you can't just push a button and have it get to safety on its own.

Maybe the sentinel is at a satisfactory point now, but we're giving input into how it could be more than simply satisfactory. People wouldn't keep on bringing up Sent survivability if it weren't an issue. Especially one for so long.

Bahamut wrote:we all know sentinels are pivotal for IG in t1, but we also know they become a huge pain in the ass in t2 to keep alive, and in many occasions they even become a liability.

I propose a t2 upgrade to change them into vehicle armor, adjust the hp if the entity accordingly and take away the ability to cap

Improved armor: 150req 50 power
-300 hp
-makes sentinel unable to decap
-swaps sentinel armor from heavy infantry to vehicle

so, a vanilla vehicle armor sentinel would be 450/50 with 400 hp
a vehicle armor sentinel with stomp would be 500/65 with 500 hp
a fully upgraded vehicle armor sentinel would be 600/90 with 500 hp

Shouldn't Hamut put this in balance forum o.O?

uh Hamut ,Sents don't need additional armor support . 2 Sentinels is alry difficult to deal with if you're Nidz/Orkz,etc . Especially 3-5 of em with Kraks , Sents don't normally survive that long till T3 ,they are not meant to be Extremely tanker. Your suggestion would be absurd if all IG players just spam Sentinels with Kraks and camp VP with repair bunkers lol . Already Leman russ/BB are tough to destroy,don't need Durable sentinels

400 vehicle armor for a 50 power price tag makes it impossible to spam, and nids and ork would take them down easier with VB and tank bustas, but you will need them, for 600/90 each i'd say they won't become must haves

And i'm pretty sure a normal predator could almost solo 2 of them

Lulgrim wrote:What exactly would be the point of adding a damage resistance effect instead of just adding HP? I thought the repair support was "too good" if anything as-is...

The question is whether you could find a large enough health pool that will sustain a sentinel to survive a little bit longer than it is now, without making it too ridiculous to repair. I find repairing in T2, with so many hard counters available, is not something that is necessarily a problem for other players in dealing with. In fact, given how easy it is to melt down a sentinel in T2, the more often you force off a sentinel for repairs, the more beneficial it is for the opposing player - especially if the IG player invests the extra power for the missile pod upgrade. They're more inclined to babysit the upgraded sentinel, and have to put off an extra squad to act as a liaison for repairs. Putting in the extra health only makes it that much more of a deterrent I find, as IG will obviously spend more time repairing - but the real question is whether the repairs are that big of an issue in T2 as they are in T1.

Referring to past arguments that IG concede map control for lack of bleed, I find that this also becomes concerning in T2 for IG because of the lack of bleed being not as apparent when you have a unit that is now, essentially, easily countered by a lot of the races (perhaps even all). The obvious argument is the trade off is a result of the the potential damage it can output however, and I often hear this in Indrid's remarks during his casts in t3, it's very unusual for a sentinel to hold out very long. I've always found this interesting as sentinels require a lot of investment in order for them to maintain presence in T2 and onward, but yet struggle so much to even live long enough to warrant benefit. Undoubtedly, good micro often remedies these problems but the way the sentinels currently play, there is near zero margin for error in T2.

So the logic behind including a %dmg decrease from ranged fire would be that it would provide the same result a health buff would in T2 for the sentinel, while not increasing the repair time - to which I find, is not as big of an issue in T2 for opposing players.

Bahamut wrote:400 vehicle armor for a 50 power price tag makes it impossible to spam, and nids and ork would take them down easier with VB and tank bustas, but you will need them, for 600/90 each i'd say they won't become must haves

And i'm pretty sure a normal predator could almost solo 2 of them

I've found a Pred would probably not be able to solo 2 sentinels from my experience. Assuming someone has managed to maintain double sent's into T3, they're usually leveled (2 or 3) and pack an incredible punch in terms of AV. Tanks don't have good health pools to begin with, not to mention rear armor hits are a nightmare as well.

Edit: I forgot to mention ,I think they out range preds as well, and have faster speed on top of this.

Commissar Vocaloid wrote:
I've found a Pred would probably not be able to solo 2 sentinels from my experience. Assuming someone has managed to maintain double sent's into T3, they're usually leveled (2 or 3) and pack an incredible punch in terms of AV. Tanks don't have good health pools to begin with, not to mention rear armor hits are a nightmare as well.

Edit: I forgot to mention ,I think they out range preds as well, and have faster speed on top of this.

I should have specified, a pred would almost solo 2 sentinels with the upgrade i'm proposing, since both the autocannon and the twinlinked lasscannon do full dmg to both heavy infantry and vehicle