Dawn of War Codex

As I'm still compiling and doing my daily analysis and what have you, I wanted to open up abit of a discussion and give a quick run down and what I've got so far, the feedback from the people are important for the work, and it's becoming more difficult to ease out the remaining issues, due to general lack of feedback on some things, so the balance is going is slowly staggering down and becoming less, well - complicated to say the least.

In other words, there are fewer things that are changed, as I'm assuming some things are okay, as they're not complained about, but I'm paying attention to things that are brought up and given them some consideration. But enough of my blabbering about that, I'll give a up-to-date status report on what's being changed so far, and why

(No real specifics mentioned, as in X changed to Y in dps etc)

Eldar
- Webway Gates has been brought up numerous times, even from fairly good eldar players, and they're considering to be really strong. As in terms of design & useage, it's meant to be abit of a risk-factor purchase to some degree, and it's utility is heavily dependant on the size of the maps. The bigger the map, the usual better pay-off you can get.

What is planned?
Right now, I still want them to maintain the same overall utility and have a decent pay-off factor, if you're not going to dedicate your time in finding crucial objects (Webways) that are putting a dent in your overall map control/economy, you should be punished for it. But obviously, the races should have the neccasary counteract measure/timings to do so. So what is planned right now is to adjust the overall build-time of the webways, and grant a more substantial reward in terms of experience for killing them, granting the possible chance to outweight your opposition by experience advantage (Lvl 2/3 engaging lvls 1) etc. The Eldar can still utilize them to the same effect, they're just going to be more careful with their placing, and not be to reckless and shrug off the loss of them, it'll be overall more rewarding for killing them. Don't worry about the build-time increase, it's more of a minor-delay if much. We're not talking big figures

Dark Reapers
The unit itself, I'm fairly okay with . However, the execution to maintain some of their usefulness against non-heavy armored units has been somewhat disapointing. I believe the original Barrage ability contained in T2 is far more acceptable to maintain some sort of minor-versality based on it's ability. However, the barrage ability is quite potent in itself, and become a nuissance in overbundance (2x) in some corresponding matchups where they are already quite "ok". So what is being done is simply just to adjust the barrage cooldown, to maintain a relative balance between how often it can be used to strong effect, so again, you're going to want to make them count on the infantry units, such as Guardsmen (generally, you'll be able to land it on them due to the formation/Squad size) etc, compared to Tacticals/etc who are plentiful and more durable)

Orks
Shootas are still quite a dominant builds, this is something I'm on the fence of, and not entirely sure on how I want to approach, or I should do infact. I'm stricly basing things on matches/gameplay that the 2x shootas have a generally strong transition compared to other builds. Are the other transition/build orders from other T1 builds not on-par with the shootas, if not - how so, and can it be adjusted from your perspective? Please be detailed on this, and don't just say simplistic sayings, I'm looking for unit compositions (theorize something, also preferably from the opposition player as well)

Chaos
Lack of Chaos feedback, there's nothing detailed just yet. Are they ok? Is there anything wrong in general, wargear/globals and such? Would love to hear more on these, since I'm just assuming it's okay here.

Imperial Guard
Imperial Guard has been having abit of a trouble. I believe this is strongly a cause of the transition/timing adjustments that were made primarily to the sentinel. They've lost alot of their early-potential pressure with it, but I believe it's for the better for the most part. However, I still think the flavorism of strong-early pressure should be mainted slightly to some degree. The Artillery Spotters are most likely being added as a detector unit for IG (Lulz 2x detectors) but again, it brings out some versaility in how IG can be played in their early-game, since they're not going to feel the much need for Catachan in some matchups, where they can sometimes be abit of a drawback more then a beneficial unit. But it varies quite so depending on the matchup itself with the map. The Artillery Spotter are undergoing some substantial changes that will shapen up their useage quite so, and make them more then a one-trick pony. Don't take the phrasing to literal tho, since I'm viewing the documents now myself, and I'm not really obliged to show it just yet, don't expect a quantity of changes that will shake the very foundation of the unit itself to a new level, it's more of the small things that can spice things up in terms of flexibility and utility, more so then the raw performance of the unit itself.

Apart from that, mostly just transition stuff in their gameplay is being looked at , not making any promises, but I've alway felt some of their transitions can be abit akward and sometimes abit of a reminiscence of the past of how some matchups were played.

Tyranids
Just some changes to the Infestation Pillars probabably, nothing that big.

Grey Knights
Still trying to find the sweet-spot for the Purgation Squad supression rate, previous patch was meant to help it out abit, but it wasn't enough. So probably going to bump up abit. Been fiddling with some concepts, but it's been scrapped and etc. The GK Dread will get it's multi-compatible GL upgrade eventually which works with other upgrades, such as Plasma Cannon + GL, Inferno Cannon + GL etc, you get the picture. Alot of investments poured into the most expensive walker in the game, so you're going to expect some pay-off in return however. So yeah, Maelstrom is also going to only be accessible in conjunction with this, to the melee-version, that's always been a partial part of it's design, the Maelstrom has been abit of a minor-placeholder for it's utility so far.

And the GK Rhino will get some tweaks in return to how the overall GK economy is built up, and with the fixed- (hopefuly) supression rate of the GK Purgation, there will be more options to build up your early-game GK into mid-late game. Also, the LRC will be less annoying, but still strong in terms of durability and punishment. Just overall economy changes that are more based on transitions. Some of the overall army-build compositions (with upgrade and such) will be actually in it's current state, unchanged. It's like I said, the transition builds will be changed up bit.

Space Marines
Make someone actually bother to use Kraken Rounds for the Sternguards, that's about it. And also, the Vanguards are probably going to get some adjustments, since 1600 lvl 1 Vanguards can be abit of a liability to some degree in the late-game. They're quite strong once they get levels tho, so will be abit careful so that they don't achieve a faster snowball potential. Also the pressure-potential of the Whirlwind might go up abit. However, with some changes in mind there might not be a need for it. It depends on how some of the "meta" is going to change, or how people go on about their mid-late game builds and compositions. They're quite the turtle-oriented units, and it might not just be their preference on how they want to play Space Marines. Any thoughts & feedbacks on that?

Wargears
Again, there hasn't been much mention on wargears, are they alright? Is something still not good enough (Just because it's not used doesn't translate into it being bad) since people are quite too stubborn to change their ordinary playstyles. The people who experiement and give things a spin, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on some of the changed wargears (That were deemed bad or flat out up) and such, feedbacks, moar!

VP TICKER - IMPORTANT
Long games are often a good indication of a fairly "good" and "even" game to some people, and I'm probably one of those as well. One wouldn't bother to watch/dl something if it was a 10 minute stomp, but if it was a 25-40 minute game, that's something you just want to watch because it might involve something crazy, and almost every present stage of the game will be present. So the VP ticker timer can be changed (Thanks to Kolaris for telling) however, this HAS SOME SERIOUS overall performance as whole, as some races have fairly strong transitions into late-game. So the importance of early-mid-late game status report is crucial for this in order to happend. Do all races have a fairly good option to fight each other in the late-game, or is no way in hell for some races/matchups. Considering the unit additions that has been made, are the existing army compositions good enough to compete with one another, or do some races (Dare I say it?) need additional changes/addons (units)?

* This is not something that is obviously set in stone, I'd rather want a unified agreedment on this, if it was to be changed *

That about wraps some of it. I might have missed something, but that's a wee-bit of a quick-run down on some of the changes that are present in the current WIP-documents.

i think the spotter change is a good idea in general but i dislike the increase in detector numbers. having to pay 40 power for a detector can hurt a lot, especially if you have just spent power on something. that said, the two situations in which a late detector are the worst is against the sorc and LA and, baring random, you should have a decent idea going in.

the issue with an increase in the number of detectors is a significant decrease in value of infiltration units, some of which --ex: meltatroopers-- depend on their infiltration to be functional. infiltration is already lackluster against nid because they have so many warriors. i suppose, given that keen vision isn't simply a flag, some work could be done with detection values that are less than the unit's full vision but that would open a whole different can of worms.

----

while shootas are no longer OP they're still quite strong. they have very good dps, are pretty cheap, and AWD is a great counter. sluggas on the other hand, are low health squads and so get forced off easily and die a lot. it's ironic really because orks are a melee oriented faction in fluff, and somewhat in TT, but in dow2 they have a lot of really good ranged stuff.

something that occurred to me is to reduce shootas' fotm accuracy. it would reduce their chase potential slightly and be uniquely orky. i don't think it would have any effect on their usage though.

Chaos is fine. There was a problem with the Warp global from the Chaos Sorcerer bugging out and doing nothing, but I'm not sure if that was fixed recently. It's been a while since it's happened to me, though I haven't been playing Sorc that much lately.

In regard to Orks

I agree with arbiter, slugga's are not as reliant as shooters are. The reason being is that they are more vulnerable to damage (as most range units will target them.), relying on an opening to get close enough to the enemy range units without already being half dead. Shooters dish out descent damage and have the safety of cover and the Big shoota upgrade to make them more durable and reliant. When I play as orks, I always buy the Nob leader for sluggas in tier 2 because generally without them, they are going die really quickly. I rarely buy the Nob for shooter boys because I know they are less vulnerable to enemy fire, therefore not really relying much on the increase durability.

Further more, the 'Big shoota' upgrade for shoota boys is really powerful. With two shoota squads with the upgrade, you can do alot of damage in a short period of time, whilst taking minimal model loss thanks to cover. Slugga boys aren't as effective because of the higher vulnerablitlity of the squad outside cover. The 'Burnas' upgrade doesn't increase damage to squads much and is ineffective against infantry if they are going to wack with their flamers (engage in melee) any way. In summary, shoota boys are less riskier and have a solid return for their cost, while slugga boys are riskier for about the same return if not less.

Now in comparison to other tier one builds for orks, shoota boys simplistic. What I mean is that you can get two squads of shoota boys with the 'Big shoota' upgrade and just focus fire on an enemy squad and watch the enemy get chewed up. If a melee squad is moving towards them, just use the 'aiming, What's that' ability to suppress them and then focus fire on them. Now as mentioned previously, slugga boys require more skill/focus to use effectively due to their higher vulnerability. The same can by said the stormboys who are meant for raiding set up teams or range infantry and then getting out before being engaged by the enemy's melee troops. Loota boys are good, but have the same vulnerabilities as other set up troops (ie. jump troops). To summarise again shoota boys are powerful, easy to use and versatile.


In regard to imperial gaurds

I'm glad that the spotters are getting a look at. I've always felt that they were missing something. I'm not sure about balance wise but, I always felt that they could have sniper weapon upgrade. This could allow them to call in support as well as pick off targets at a distance.

I know this has been mentioned before in several threads but, I think the psyker would be a good subcommander to the imperial gaurd. The unit would be unique in the fact that it will have abilities which would debuff enemy units, rather than buffing your own units (like the general and commisar lord abilities). Further more, it would provide the guard with another unit which can be decent in melee.

In regards to Chaos

The 'plague of undeath' globle ability is generally under performing. I mean it costs 200 red, to make killed enemies come back to fight on your side for a short while. The only time I ever use it is when I have 500 red ( and feel like trolling) by activating the ability as well 'noxious cloud' on a mob of weak infantry from mobing factions (ie. gaurds, tyranids, orks). In comparison I think the noxious cloud is much better as it kills weak infantry really quickly. I guess the main issue with it is the reliance to kill as many enemy infantry units as possible to get the most out of the globle. Perhaps making the units last indefinitely would help, with maybe a nerf/uncontrollable?

On a separate note, bloodletters are being out performed by other units. In retail , they where good at dealing damage vs vehicles, however since the inclusion of raptors and change their melee damage they don't have use that can't be done better by another unit. The power cost really puts me off from using them coupled by the fact that they are really vulnerable to damage compared to plague marines, who cost a bit more but are more useful and durable. I suggest maybe removing the power cost and increasing the requisition cost to 450 or just halve the power cost.

In regards to Grey knights

I personally feel that they are in need of some new units, especially in relation to anti tank. The only anti-tank they have are the interceptors, terminators, paladins, rhino, dreadnaught, brother captain. Terminators and paladins move too slow and cost a lot to be effective against vehicles. Interceptors have to rely on their 'anti-vehicle' grenades. The brother captain is pretty slow as well, so its difficult to get close to vehicles. The upgraded rhino is a weak anti tank but is vulnerable to other vehicles with anti tank weapons, especially tanks. The grey knight dreadnaught is effective against vehicles especially with the plasma cannon upgrade. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that they need something like a anti-vehicle set up team or some rocket upgrades or anything else to counter vehicles better.

I'm glad that the dreadnaught is finally getting the grenade launchers.

@orks.

i think a cheaper burner upgrade would help out.
theese days you see very often sluggas just kept vanilla.
Teyre pretty weak then tho. - thats the only suggestion i can make here.. im not famillar with orks at all.

@chaos

if you want a suggestion:
im often lagging of a Vehicle counter whitch is not that expensive in power.
ofc, there is the tzeentch deva, but if you didnt purchase in T1, its also 30 power to get them
here i think its possible to reduce the plaque marines power cost to 30, since they actually do really little damage to other units unlike vehicles.
to compare... missle launcher tacs, cost in fact more and dont have the slow, but they do still good damage to infantery and have their tsknf..
but actually its just a change to have more feel of av options.

2nd bigger suggestion:

Bloodletters... give them a role ... former times they were a good option as AV - far teleport and good damage ...
but now... we have Mark of Khorne CSM, Heretics and ofc the really cool Raptors... in fact we dont need more power meele troops ... high damage or not.
of course they can be powerfull, but i think at the moment you just build them coz theyre looking cool.
so actually my 2 suggestions synergize ...
i feel i have only a few av options in t2 - maybe because Letters are no more.

Eldar
I have written my opinion and my possible solution in the eldar thread. I'm not going to write it again.

Your solution is... well, curious, but i don't think is going to solve the problem: eldar still is going to have awesome map control (thanks to the teleport between gates and denying the possible map control losing for retreat squads) at low prize. This solution could work in small maps and/or relatively noob eldar player. But a good eldar player is going to place his webgates in unexpected or hidden places. And in big maps the situation is even worse.

And how many XP is going to give the Warpgates? If it's loo little the "solution" is not going to work, and if is too much you are going to create one problem to solve another one.

Seriously, a cost increase and a pop cost added (Like from 50 red to 80 red and 3 pop) it's IMHO a more simple and efficient solution: keeps Eldar great map control, but at the same time punished if the eldar player start spamming them with their upkeep.

Chaos
Seriously? So the 2 last Chaos thread post, the Raptors Jump thread and the Plague of Undead thread are lack of feedback?

In essence, you have done a good job with the Chaos balance in ELITE: Workshipp heal effect in demons a bit nerfed, reduce the Chaos AV in T2, nerf Empireal Abbysm, buff Shrines, balance some OP wargear and buffing some weak one, solved or almost solved the 2 x Heretics bleed, make the GUO a real superunit, give reasons to Chaos to go to T3....

But still there are things that can be improved or even new builds:

- Raptors Daemonic Maul it's too expensive and gives too few benefits to the Raptor squad. And even more in the new patch preview, because is going to be used ONLY for the Aspiring Champion.
- Nurgle Workshipp seems balanced in T1, but don't scale very well though tiers like the Tzeentch and Khorne ones.
- Plague of Undeath are good (or even overpower!) in 2vs2 and 3vs3 against swarmy races, but nearly to useless in 1vs1.
- Chaos build with Shrine-based gameplay: weaker Shrines, but cheaper and more spammable. (more used like the new Tyrannid Infestation Towers and less than the TM Relay Beacon)
- Plague Champion still don't have a long range ranged build, (For a change from the typical Plague Fist + T2 armor + Icon of Nurgle/Mucus discharge build)
- Chaos still have shitty map control.

And i think this is all, i guess.

Imperial Guard
I find Artillery Spotters make his job very well. The smoke shell makes you able to simply go and force melee (for example) against a Havoc/Devastator/HWT with your guardmen without need of flank, and the Artillery shell disrupt melee charges if is well timed. Without mention that the smoke shell works against vehicles and you they can turn into an anti garrison counter in T2 with Incendiary Shell.

They could be a one trick pony, but a very good one.

Tyrannid
I said my opinion about Infestation towers. You want to give a different gamestyle, more based in non-synaptic criatures without Synapse bombs? Make Infestation Towers gives buffs only to non-synapse criatures, and make the Infestation towers buff don't stack with Synapse auras.

Grey Knights
Without going deeply, i found two problems:
- No ranged build. Unless, of course, you spam Purgation squads with/out Psicannons. But at the same time if found (need to investigate more) that GK melee squads have good ranged damage compared with other melee squads
- Where their AV is poor, can deal easily with Dreads and Transports. But they have too much difficulties to deal against tanks and with a lesser extend with ranged Super units.

Wargears
I have in mind some wargears for Plague Champion and Chaos Sorcerer, but needs more work.

VP TICKER - IMPORTANT
In addition that you have said (balance and etcetera) i have to say that IMHO see a 25-30 minutes replay is really funny and almost always interesting and intense, and difficult to get boring seeing them.

But if the battle goes more than 40 minutes... It could be turning boring. I mean, with more time = more superunits. The 5 or 10 first times could be interesting and funny to see 2 or even 3 Terminator Squads and a Land Raider against 2 Seer Council with an Avatar and Two Fireprism. But if it becomes continuous, gradually loses the fun.

Not mention that, if you are a busy person, it's more easy to see a 25 minutes game than a 45-50 minutes one.

EDIT... 2th time:
To sk4zi: In fact, except for the supress when they land or their AV posibilities with melta gun upgrade, Bloodletters are usually more effective than Raptors and have less economic impact than them.

VP TICKER - IMPORTANT

My 2 cents,

We can already choose to have 1000 vp in any game mode, if people wanted to play longer games they would be increasing their vp count no?


Imperial Guard

Fixing catachan's bleed when?



Chaos
Chaos is fine, perhaps revert some changed to let the galaxy burn, don't make it as good as retail but not as bad as it is now, it's not useless but it's not great either.


Space Marines

If the whirlwind could have some kind of accuracy that requires some skill to use it would be cool, as of now it's incredibly random and completely luck-based even against giant blobs, completely worthless imo.

Caeltos wrote:The people who experiement and give things a spin, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on some of the changed wargears (That were deemed bad or flat out up) and such, feedbacks, moar!

In response to something you said a while back, I've tried out what are, imo, the least used wargears quite extensively. Opinions are:

Bio-Plasma Reasonably effective, worth the cost, but it is a very situational wargear. Should be tweaked so it can damage units in buildings to increase its versatility.
Reinforced chitin now is very useful, especially with acid splatter.
Channeling runes FOR THE LOVE OF BLACK JESUS WHY DOES NOBODY USE THIS?? Heals 5/5 squad for 100hp/sec with a surprisingly large range. For sm players who keep complaining about banshees, this takes banshee bullshit to a whole new level. But oh noes I want my witchblade and robe who gives a fuck about this?
Runes of R(e)aping What can I say? Guide/Doom/Fortune spam. This wargear is actually part of the reason I play farseer with eldar (the other being farsight+gayt anywhere on the map for 85 red). Think most people cbf with that much micro and prefer a point-click-kill jedi master warlock. Personally tho I find doombringer/fortune armor/runes of reaping to be such a strong combo. This build would become so commonplace if eldar players bothered to learn how to play this, especially the better ones whose micro is already good
purification vials Remind me why these are always overlooked? Very powerful with decent range aswell Infact they're borderline op against practically every t1 melee unit (exceptions being jump marines)
refractor field Why is the best shield in the game the same cost as the CL one? Only reason I can think of is CL shield synergy with Harness of Rage. Personally have had great fun with the melee TM, who takes a puny amount of ranged damage when melee cover+shield is happening
Kustom shoota Overlooked because of player stupidity. People want to smash with their warboss not shoot. Ow I walked into your suppression team arc fine I'll just knock you over. Ow you have tooled up apo fine he can stay on the ground for awhile. Ow you wanna kite me with your sent fine I hurt you more. This costs what 120/20 iirc? Not much more you can do to encourage people to use it.
Liber heresius I've tried to use this. I really have. Honestly haven't seen one situation where the resources were best spent here. Without decreasing ability cooldowns there's almost never a time when this pays off.

Caeltos wrote:Considering the unit additions that has been made, are the existing army compositions good enough to compete with one another, or do some races (Dare I say it?) need additional changes/addons (units)?

Well I put a pretty extensive essay into saying why a Slaanesh subcommander would benefit Chaos and I'm still entirely convinced it would be for the best; Chaos is still very vulnerable to the abundance of power weapons and plasma late game, and something to shut them down and at least let chaos melee units besides bloodleters and clawminators compete with other race's melee units

And when are we fixing cata bleed? Raptor maul still useless aswell.

I won't comment in regards to balance with races I don't play much, but as an Ork player, I can tell you that the main reason I buy 2x shootas as opposed to going 2x (or even 3x) slugga w/ 1 shoota, or even 2x slugga into quick Loota/Stormboyz is because of difficult it is to take on heroes (melee ones mostly) with one or no shootas. Slugga melee skill allows them to be consistently destroyed by the specials of melee heroes and even some other t1 melee squads (banshees and strike squads come to mind, although I realize there are cost differences there). With 2x shootas, you can kite a melee hero and focus fire him down while the sluggas go pick on ranged squads/flank around for retreat hits etc. Also, having the majority of your army melee is asking for a set up team to come up against you, so you get stormboyz. Now, even more of your army is melee, leaving you even more susceptible to melee heroes or strong melee counters like doomblast, nade spikes, stomps, shotgun blasts, kill the weak, etc etc. Without going 2x shoota, the army doesn't feel like it has a good balance of melee/range that allows counters to one or the other to be less effective. While I would love for orks to be a mostly melee race, sluggas just don't pay off because they are so easily countered compared to shootas.

The painboy has helped a great deal in reducing slugga melee bleed as they get into combat, but I still feel a severe lack of dealing with commanders (and scouts, I might as well add) without 2 shoota squads.

I would love to see a melee skill increase with burnas, although i'm afraid that might be asking too much. I cringe everytime I watch my sluggas get roflstomped in t1 by asm because of all the damned specials (and in t2 because of merciless strike, but that's another story).

Re-reading your post, perhaps you meant compared to other races t1 builds, would would make everything I just wrote somewhat useless, but since i'm not 100% sure i'll post anyways.

It's not useless, but further expanding on the statement helps to find some problems that might not be neccasarily tied to the issue at had. The problem might be elsewhere, and that's where the tuning is required.

Nice to see big posts from everyone and I haven't read them yet, but just wanna chime in and say that I don't think VP decay rate should be changed. It's perfect as it is IMO.

I've posted much more detailed notes in a number of other places, but I'm pretty sure my opinions are of questionable value. That said, here is a summary of the things that I think need some balance work in two races I'm current the most practiced in, orks and nids. I hope this adds value to ELITE!

Orks
Sluggas and Shootas

• The balance between sluggas and shootas reminds me a lot of the balance between hormas and termams. Which is to say, sluggas kindda suck in T1, their upgrades are too expensive, and shootas are really strong in T1 and T2 and their upgrades are surprisingly cheap.
• Any nerfs to shootas should really go hand in hand ith buffs to sluggas, primarily in T1
• Sluggas lose or draw every T1 melee squad, and have less utility.
• Repair: Sluggas are a bleedy melee squad with nothing to contribute from the back lines, and are the only repair in the faction. This is really painful. Contrast to heretics, who can get nades or wiship, and cost less and have on demand suppression.
• I'd be happy to have Big Shootas damage go down further in exhange for normal shoota models getting a small dps boost. The ability for this squad to be at near max potency at 2-3 models is both weird and not needed. Alternativly, have the Big Shoota upgrade increase the squads dps by a % and adjust as needed, so vanella shootas don't get a buff from this.

Weird Boy

• Is still just so silly good. As a former SM player, reading the Weird Boy vs Libby threads is always a laugh. Libby is not in the same ballpark. Libby's 2 starting skills make him go from worthless to a purchase worth considering. Weird Boy could have just his basic attack and he's be worth considering. Add on top an AOE stun (that word on terminators ffs) and a ranged nuke, and he's an auto-buy for T2. I'm not sure what I'd change...

Tyranids
Termas and Hormas

• Mirror a lot of the slugga/shoota stuff. Nerf terms plz and buff hormas, mainly in T1.
• Crippling Poison is better then AWD. Yes, the range is short, but it doesn't cost me Red and works on un-supressable commanders. It's crazy strong, and the upgrade costs 50/15? Really? Why! I don't deserve this kind of potency, but I'll abuse the heck out of it.
• And then by contrast, hormagaunt AG are just terrible when compared side by side to Crippling Poison. More expensive, smaller numeric bufs to health/dps and a small leap distance upgrade compared to an AMAZING ability.
• That all said, hormagaunts are not the nid repair unit, and I happily let them bleed in T1 without replacing models, then get Endless Swarm in T2 (or use one of the T2 reinforce call-ins) and add AG Warriors, and suddenly they are worth having. But if they die, no big deal.

Warriors

• I like the reductions in the potency of the melee/ranged synapse, and I'd be pleased to see them go further. These syanpses warp the balance of nids very badly. It's hard to advocate for hormas getting buffs when any changes get super magnified in T2!

VC Fex

• This unit is overpriced and bad at it's job. Losing fire on the move made me stop playing nids as main. I've listed the reasons elsewhere. Compare it side by side to a brightlance wraithlord, or a GK dread, both of which can be made in T2 and be repaired.

You must wrap the [*]-bullet list in "list" tags like this:
This is easiest to do by selecting your text and clicking the "List" button which adds the starting and ending tags around the painted text. Fixed your message for you.

Thanks!

Hi

I am just going to comment on Caletos' comments on Orks and shootas and sluggas. The TLDR version is "we are not seeing triple shoota builds, so shootas themselves are probably okay"

The difficulty with shootas as i see it is that the race design revolves around purchasing them. They should almost be the starter squad. Most safe/efficient builds, even mellee centric ones will include double shootas: eg slugga-shoota-shoota-slugga, slugga-shoota-shoota-stormboyz, slugga-shoota-shoota-painboy
Even with the improved lootas in the mod the safest build is slugga-shoota-shoota-loota (i usually add the painboy to this one).

This partly reflects the game design with mellee having a high "peril" or risk-reward ratio. You can wipe an enemy squad on retreat but also lose your own mellee quad on retreat. This is compounded for orks with a higher risk due to fragile models. In addition, units that sluggas should stand toe-to-toe with (when supported!) have abilities that tilt the balance; ie doom blast and banshee special attacks.

That means the only place to "mess" with shootas is in their upgrades. One could reprice the upgrades so that only either big shoota or shoota nob were affordable in tier one but as I say, I don't think we are seeing triple shoota builds so I think shootas are probably good as they are.

If you wish to encourage more versatility that would mean a buff in tier one to sluggas and/or stormboyz (stormboyz have especially high "peril" in tier one). It would be good to leave sluggas and storms close to their current tier two performance. That leaves some minor options, the flamer upgrade could increase slugga health more eg 25% instead of 15% (burn dat house down could be sacrificed). For stormboyz you could move some of the health from the nob onto the other models.

Increasing the speed boost of waagh would also encourage mellee builds. If this could be increased to +0.5 but not have the speed boost stack then sluggas would be more attractive.

I reckon that the reduced mellee damage on retreat buffs both sluggas and stormz in tier one relative to other mellee units eg banshees and it may be worth simply waiting to see how things work out.

Tex had a decent idea for fixing gayts in his cocast with rupee.

Leave them at 50 red and no pop, but make it a 2 min cooldown. So you have to plan ahead.

Cmon I haven't seen one post supporting gayts in their current form. Please take the gay out of gayts

from 15 to 120 seconds cooldown between each gate construction is quiet ... severe. It's an effective 4 minute until you can actually start using them ;\

DJ Raffa wrote:Tex had a decent idea for fixing gayts in his cocast with rupee.

Leave them at 50 red and no pop, but make it a 2 min cooldown. So you have to plan ahead.

Cmon I haven't seen one post supporting gayts in their current form. Please take the gay out of gayts

This would reduce a bit the SPAM and make the eldar use them more wisely, but still the main problem IMHO it's not resolved: awesome map control at almost zero cost.

Caeltos wrote:from 15 to 120 seconds cooldown between each gate construction is quiet ... severe. It's an effective 4 minute until you can actually start using them ;\

Exactly. It means you have to think ahead and plan tactically rather than popping 6 around the map at once. They will be a long-term investment, when the red could be spent elsewhere - if you're planning gate play, you'll prolly need to build one soon after you have 50 red. Also means greater reward for killing them (as they can't just be replaced in a *click*), and you can't suddenly just stick one outside each of your allies' bases and then 3 more by the VPs. This is the best solution I've heard so far, so gracias Tex.

However they'll still be very rewarding and provide great map control. If you place them wisely they will still be strong. Just balanced this time

Oh and please can we help kraken rounds (Sternguard) find a purpose in life?

2 minute is simply just way too much. It would be quite an exclusive tie-in with any building-call in to have as high of a cooldown.

Realistically, look at scenarios that play out. The first webway gate (Base) would be placed somewhere around at best 8-10 minutes in. (This is also somewhat match dependant and the red dumping)

At worst, in consequence to the long cooldown. It's realistically not even a strong scaling global in return as well. Since it's more based on "as fast as webway becomes available" nerf, more so then looking at the long-term useage. If you decide to not place webways, and spend your red elsewhere, you'll be shoe-horning yourself into a corner with a -4 minute delay for the first transportation capability.

Least not forget, if the outside-base HQ webway goes down suddenly, it's extremely punishing for the Eldar player. I think it's far more ideal to maintain their scaling potential and not make them a neglictable global for those who don't get them in the early-mid game. They're not exactly being endorsed to be purchased even for those players in the late-game state of the game, where those 4 minutes are EXTREMELY important. By that, I mean it's more rewarding for the opposition to take them down, and gain some more benefit out of it the hunt, rather than be rewarded a mere ~50 experience and very minor red pop.

It's a solution that seems to forget about the other consequencially changes based on smaller maps, where the "6" webways are abit of an extreme. Even-so, the higher the count, the more delay it'll be. And looking at things, you're more likely in a position to afford a fuck-up once on the webways.

I think it's actually way too severe of a change, and I'm not considering it. The broad implications on other factors are the ones that makes me rule it out. Trust me, if it was implemented, it would damage the Eldar who like to utilize them beyond any wildest comprehension, and for those who don't bother going with them, will not even bother anymore, instead of popping one out to increase the potential map control pressure when they fall behind.

increase the cost of suppression turrets by 10 power please; they're better than setup teams in every way except mobility and a well placed one doesn't need mobility. either that or give them a 15-30 second telegraphed call-in.

Eh? Suppression turrets have always taken 15 seconds to build... I'm not following you.

suppression turrets are very similar to setup teams although there are some key differences, almost entirely in the turret's favor. turrets cannot be knocked back, stunned, bled, or tied up. the suppress at least as fast as a setup team and do about 150% of the damage. they cost less req and the same power, can be repaired in combat, and the heroes who have access to them have repair themselves. building_defense is very resistant to most forms of damage, especially those found in T1, baring flamers, which are much shorter range than the turrets and not available to all races. the turrets are also somewhat detectors, detecting at range 15 instead of the usual 5 for non-detectors.

the end result is that it is very easy to use turrets to completely seal off areas with very little warning if they enemy makes a small mistake or isn't entirely prepared for a turret. in the vast majority of situations a turret is better than a setup team and yet they cost less.

tl;dr: i'm tired of turrets on natural power and at the entrances to bases and i want it to be harder to do.

I wrote about it once but just in case you forgot, heretics still can't toggle out of worship when canticle of absolution is used. It seems to me that the canticle was not designed to stun units but instead designed to block activated abilities.

Chaos Librarian wrote:I wrote about it once but just in case you forgot, heretics still can't toggle out of worship when canticle of absolution is used. It seems to me that the canticle was not designed to stun units but instead designed to block activated abilities.

thats actually neccessary.

Heretics cant retreat when theyre worshipping. so prevent the ability to stop worship means prevent the possibility to retreat.
no ability should do that (or all)

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:suppression turrets are ...

Yes yes but you suggested to "give them a 15-30 second telegraphed call-in." But all them turrets already take 15 seconds to build. I don't understand what you want to change.

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:suppression turrets are...

Just buy immolator. Problem solved =)

Immolator-Oy i heard u haz a turret there "immolates" no moar turretz to burn ?:(

Asmon wrote:

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:suppression turrets are...

Just buy immolator. Problem solved =)

farseer

basically, make a drop icon appear for 15-30 seconds before the turret actually lands and then the tech spends several seconds building it. that way you might at least be able to tell that he's building a turret on your natural power and have time to do something about it.

Turrets can be flanked. And can't reposition themselves when you do.
If one builds a turret he is pretty much committing himself to that part of the map.
Go around, go genbash, cap up the map, etc.

They don't have the flexibility that devs have to reposition or retreat for later use.
(Upgrading to av for example when time calls for it)
One bad engagement and it's gonna get destroyed.

Turrets already have a building time in which you can knock back the tm/pc
stopping the build and most likely force him off completely.

I'm having a feeling you are coming from a 3v3 perspective.