Mark of Khorne, CSM

[ChrisNihilus]

So, a fast one;

Mark of Khorne is very good, but it is overshadowed by the Tzeentch one which is goodier.

MoK cost less (70r, 30e) respect MoT (125r, 30e). Good.

But what if we increase the cost of MoK to be the same of MoT, and, in exchange, improve it a little?

It's not a buff as there is an increase in cost, but we can maybe see MoK CSM more often.
They are usually buy in a phase of the game that see the players gasping for energy, not requisition, so maybe the players will be happy to invest 55r more in a unit that they want to last until the end of the game.

[Torpid]

There have been a lot of discussions about KCSM recently. I can't find the most recent thread. The general consensus is that they're fine as they are. They're much better in 1v1 than in team games mind due, but in general that holds true for all melee units. Sluggas are hormagaunts are a prime example of this. Imagine going 2x horms vs IG in 3v3. Lol.

[ChrisNihilus]

There have been a lot of discussions about KCSM recently. I can't find the most recent thread. The general consensus is that they're fine as they are. They're much better in 1v1 than in team games mind due, but in general that holds true for all melee units. Sluggas are hormagaunts are a prime example of this. Imagine going 2x horms vs IG in 3v3. Lol.

I don't think MoK is weak nor that it need a buff.
I think a moderate increase in the price for a moderate improvement will make them a more intriguing choice.

[Torpid]

A more intriguing choice? Why? What do you propose regarding buffing them to compensate for the price increase?

Regardless, they ought to cost less as they don't bleed your foe as much as TCSM really and they're more prone to bleeding themselves while all the while requiring the AC to be useful and the AC himself costs loads too.

[Raffa]

KCSM are much better in 1v1 and yes MoK is normally a bad choice in 2v2/3v3.

But it's been debated so much already and no changes have been made so I can't see it changing now.

[Aertes]

I think the main problem of Mark of Khorne for CSM is the lack of a transport for this army untill T3 (and that's thanks to Elite and its Chaos Land Raider).

Other melee troops in other armies are jump troops, or come in hordes, or have a transport at their disposal in T2 (1 for Grey Knights). But KCSM are few models and always on foot. The most similar thing to be protected as they move they have is the Sorcerer's warp abilities, or moving under heretic's adoring infitration, again with the sorcerer. Chaos Lord's adoration is good to increase their speed, but that will make them bump into supression weapons anyway.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

KCSM are fine? Maybe.

Let's see how many times are going to be purchased in the next patch, with Raptors with soft AV role and Bloodletters costing 8 less pop than fully upgraded KCSM and with extra regeneration rate with Nurgle Worshipp.

[ChrisNihilus]

A more intriguing choice? Why? What do you propose regarding buffing them to compensate for the price increase?

Regardless, they ought to cost less as they don't bleed your foe as much as TCSM really and they're more prone to bleeding themselves while all the while requiring the AC to be useful and the AC himself costs loads too.

Yes, because the MoK is a more risky investment than MoT, even if they cost less.
But it is that type of investment that become safer the more you invest, even if the benefits/money is the same.

You say that they are more prone to bleed. I agree.

Now MoK give +1 Speed, +15% Health and +10 melee skill.
I say that for that 55R they can have, maybe, some +X% extra to Health.
I don't know how much is considered balanced, you choose.

It's not a free buff. It has a price, but will make MoK CSM bleed a little less and i believe people will feel it as a far safer choice, even if the change is actually minimal.

[Black Relic]

Like I said in the other threads about MoK CSM. They are fine. The pricing for the upgrade in fine in my opinion. The only thing that i would like to see is a price decrease on the AC when MoK is purchased. Because MoK CSM, from my experience, without AC is a squad that doesn't scale in t2 that well. And they true only use would be counter initiation. And without AC, their ability to abuse a flanking maneuver seems sub-par. Will still scare the **** out of most squads though.

[Raffa]

I think the main problem of Mark of Khorne for CSM is the lack of a transport for this army untill T3 (and that's thanks to Elite and its Chaos Land Raider).

Other melee troops in other armies are jump troops, or come in hordes, or have a transport at their disposal in T2 (1 for Grey Knights). But KCSM are few models and always on foot. The most similar thing to be protected as they move they have is the Sorcerer's warp abilities, or moving under heretic's adoring infitration, again with the sorcerer. Chaos Lord's adoration is good to increase their speed, but that will make them bump into supression weapons anyway.

No, that's not the problem at all. And a Land raider has no direct synergy with them.

It's how TCSM are just better most of the time, and significantly so.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

To sum up: Metagame have changed, the game have changed, new units were implemented... And KCSM haven't changed, they are a bit obsolete and without a definite, specific role in the Chaos (with other reasons which I'm not going to write again) they are a bit useless, even if they aren't a bad squad by themselves.

I don't want to be rude, but already have a 18-page KCSM thread in Balance subforum, so maybe we can lock this thread and continue in that one.

[Dark Riku]

KCSM were changed as well ...

[Cheah18]

I think having them called Khorne Berserkers would be cool

[Orkfaeller]

You cant change a unit's name / portrait unless you're doing it the Vanguard/Sternguard way.

[Aertes]

I still think their problem is being a melee unit without resources to reach melee properly.
Hormagaunts come in hordes and leap
Banshees also leap and have fleet of foot and the war scream, not to mention the Falcon
And so on.

How bad would it be giving the Khorne Beserkers (KCSM) a charge leap?. Instead of just the normal acceleration, allow them to bounce when withing in assault range. It could be made short enough to avoid overpower and could use the assault marines/raptors leap animation (without the jumppack sound and fier, of course).
This way they would be just like they ar enow, but a bit more handy.

[Torpid]

Wouldn't make it much of a difference really, they already get a melee charge which combined with their speed of 6 and their great ranged damage is pretty strong. We still haven't really established any reason as to why KCSM ought to be buffed.

Any price change as suggested in the original post would be unnecessary, it's nice that they're relatively cheap now as it means you can get KCSM+BCs out fast and that's when they're most useful. If you wait much longer to get your KCSM you could just get a BL squad instead.

[Sub_Zero]

We still haven't really established any reason as to why KCSM ought to be buffed.

Tzeentch marines and khorne marines cost almost same resources. Both designed to have high damage and no active/passive abilities. As it stands tzeentch marines are a superior ranged unit, only few similar ranged units can defeat them, they justify their fairly high cost. Khorne marines are an inferior melee unit, a lot of melee units (including cheaper ones) can defeat them, the high cost is not quite justified. Khorne marines do not have a defined role. What are they good for? Raptors do a 10 times better job in catching ranged units, heretics can suppress (yeah, that is what COUNTERS melee units) and it doesn't really matter that they are weaker than khorne marines, the possibility to slow down a unit/a group of them is priceless, it exposes them to be shot and being weakened they will be defeated by heretics, in T2 you get bloodletters who are just natural beasts. Not only do khorne marines deprive you a good source of ranged damage but they also cannot fight for shit (yeah, at least I expect them to stomp all the melee units of T1). It is like a football club buys an expensive player and he cannot score a goal for a long time. Why was he so expensive then? Here it is even easier. Either adjust the cost or buff the unit accordingly (some buffs I proposed in my thread). So in the end I would love to ask. Why similarly designed units are so different in terms of cost efficiency and performance? And exactly why one unit is extremely good at fighting that doesn't involve any usage of abilities (their RAW damage output and health pool vs RAW damage output and health pool of any other similar ranged unit) and the other one is the opposite?

[Dark Riku]

So you'd want them to counter shees? A power melee squad that counters the HI armor type? To tired of this to write more.

[Lulgrim]

Too tired of this to write more.

[Dark Riku]

Exactly :p

[Sub_Zero]

Why not? Banshees can suppress at will, can negate 50% ranged damage and run like mad. Khorne marines have no abilities that can help. Why a more expensive squad with no such abilities can't just win toe-to-toe?

Assault marines stomp banshees. But that is not a problem, is it? You just don't allow them to jump onto your banshees. The same situation with khorne marines. If your opponent replaces his ranged unit for a melee unit then he puts himself in a position when he is likely to initiate engagements. So even if banshees lose vs khorne marines in toe-to-toe fight they still will be superior to khorne marines. Because both defensively and offensively they can just slow them down in order to gain benefits from it. If banshees' goal is to take down a ranged unit then they just run in, suppress khorne marines and do the job. If they need to defend their own ranged unit then it is even worse for khorne marines. Because if banshees defend guardians they can suppress khorne marines and guardians throw grenades, if they defend rangers then the same scheme works - suppressed khorne marines get knocked back by a kinetic shot and then slaughtered, etc. And now say me can khorne marines pull off something scary like that? That is why when banshees face khorne marines being isolated they should not win vs them. That is it. Don't see a problem whatsoever.

And in general I want either a price reduction or a buff. Preferably the first variant. Because it doesn't change the game cardinally and doesn't require additional fixes.

[Dark Riku]

Why not? Banshees can suppress at will, can negate 50% ranged damage and run like mad. Khorne marines have no abilities that can help. Why a more expensive squad with no such abilities can't just win toe-to-toe?

Because that's not how this game works!

Assault marines stomp banshees.

It's the other way around and another great example that price isn't everything.

Things like this make me take you not serious at all.

And in general I want either a price reduction or a buff.

Good for you!

[Sub_Zero]

You quote like that and don't even explain your position. How am I supposed to answer on these notes?

Because that's not how this game works!

No, that is not how a discussion works. You explain your position and not just mention that you disagree with something.

It's the other way around and another great example that price isn't everything.

Your point is that banshees counter heavy armored units. My point is that some heavy armored unit counters banshees but it is not considered a problem. I explained why. Another heavy armored unit that has way less utility (neither good at countering ranged units nor melee units, assault marines are excellent everywhere) and has almost the same cost but cannot win. And khorne marines are designed to fight in melee vs other melee units whereas assault marines are designed to jump onto ranged units. It turns out that a dedicated melee unit does a worse job at fighting in melee than a dedicated jump unit (with exceptions of course, but I am talking about fights vs units like banshees, slugga boyz etc). Costs are everything. You compare them as you compare units in order to understand absolutely everything. Of course you consider other details. But without that you are not going anywhere. You want to talk without comparisons and without costs? How is that even possible?

Good for you!

What is that for? Why did you say that? To irritate me? Another reason? I said that because I wanted you to know my position.

[Nurland]

The only heavily armored units that counter banshees in melee are melee Terminators.

Imo the thing about KCSMs is that you change a ranged unit into a melee squad (making earlier counters possibly quite significantly less effective). Hence generally amplifying the window of opportunity the vehicle provides. This is especially the case if the enemy gives up a suppression weapon for AV.

[Dark Riku]

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Can someone say a role that KCSM can do and can't be done by Bloodletters or Raptors in the next patch? Because except if you play a retreat killing strategy or you have your CSM at least at level 2 or 3 I can't find a reason to buy KCSM over Raptors or Bloodletters, and even more when the alternative (Mark of Tzeentch) it's a lot more polyvalent and useful in almost all situations.

[Cheah18]

You cant change a unit's name / portrait unless you're doing it the Vanguard/Sternguard way.

So it's not possible to like, I dunno, make a new unit with everything the same (copy it basically) but change the name and do some fiddly stuff with the upgrades? just curious, not pressing for this.

And what about the IG hero portraits?

All this modding is very interesting to me.

[Torpid]

Can someone say a role that KCSM can do and can't be done by Bloodletters or Raptors in the next patch? Because except if you play a retreat killing strategy or you have your CSM at least at level 2 or 3 I can't find a reason to buy KCSM over Raptors or Bloodletters, and even more when the alternative (Mark of Tzeentch) it's a lot more polyvalent and useful in almost all situations.

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=295005

[Nuclear Arbitor]

it's really just clawminators. banshees don't have much problem with hammers, although they will lose in a 1v1 just because of the health difference.

[Lichtbringer]

OK, first of all: I have no Idea about KCSM Balance, or Chaos for that matter

But here are the Facts:
Not many people buy KCSM.
You need to "sacrifice" your CSM to get them, so it prevents you from getting the shootie version.
Plus I think Chaos has a problem with popcap?

So if you know you can only get one unit, lets say they are balanced for their cost, would you go for the one thats a bit cheaper?

Edit: So in the end, the first Idea (little buff, little more cost) seems reasonable to me. Except if what is acutally good about them, is that you get them earlyer?
On the other hand 55req is not that much, so....