Dawn of War Codex

Hey there!

As some of You probably know, I'm a host of the Monthly Rumble Tournament series and this time I'd like to ask for Your opinion about another series of tournaments, as well as a possile rework of the MRT's.

First of all, I'd like to introduce You to a crowd funding idea - bascially anyone would be able to support the tournament by donating any amount of money to the tournament prize pool. That way we could all fund a nice prize for the competitors just by donating a little amount to the prize pool. To visualise it, let's say 10 people donate 5 euro - we already have 50 euros in the prize pool. I believe this way we could make this tournament really worthwhile, as well as much more competetive. All the donations would be made public (someone's nickname + the donated amount) unless someone specifically requires not to show his nickname publically.

That kind of a tournament would take place every 4 months and would consist of 32 players. It would be played over 2 days (to prevent day-long or night-long tournaments as they happend with MRT's), with a specific set of rules soon (matter of a few days) to be released. Entry to the tournament would be open, registration would start 1 month prior to it.

Preceeding the Big Tournament (name coming soon ) would be a series of 3 Monthly Rumble Tournament's - with a winner takes all rules (consisting of 16 players, with a small prize of 5 or 10 euro for the winner), that would as well work as a qualifier tournaments. Winner and a runner up would have a guaranteed seed in the big tournament.

I'd like to hear Your opinions on that idea, as well as any ideas for improvement You would have.

Thanks in advance, Eerie

The smaller monthly rumbles should be capped at 32 (or more) not 16 IMO, so that everyone has a chance to play. The big tourney should probably be smaller in size

fv100 wrote:The smaller monthly rumbles should be capped at 32 (or more) not 16 IMO, so that everyone has a chance to play. The big tourney should probably be smaller in size

The main problem with that is that MRT's are played every month and with 32 players or teams then tend to take 8+ hours, ending up at times like 4am in Europe. Playing them over 2 days also doesn't cut it, cause they happen to often. Instead we'll get a 1 large tournament every 4 months, so people can prepare way ahead of time to have 2 days off to play it. Still, I might reconsider it.

This will be a much better format in my opinion, and I also think that it will encourage a lot of hype and excitement seeing as how there will be a larger space of time in between events.

I for one will easily be able to contribute 80 or more euros per tournament. I know that is in reality not a very large sum of money, but in terms of recent prizes, it will probably get the ball rolling. Anyway, I just hope it brings the best out of everyone!

Tex wrote:This will be a much better format in my opinion, and I also think that it will encourage a lot of hype and excitement seeing as how there will be a larger space of time in between events.

I for one will easily be able to contribute 80 or more euros per tournament. I know that is in reality not a very large sum of money, but in terms of recent prizes, it will probably get the ball rolling. Anyway, I just hope it brings the best out of everyone!

Thanks mate, I'm sure we all really appreciate it and - like it or not - it is a HUGE contribution !

Looking back, I'm surprised this hasn't been suggested before (or if it has, why it has yet to be incorporated). I feel it'd be a really awesome idea, both with the cash incentive and the prelims for the big tournament. I say go for gold with this one, it'd be a good change for the MRT scene.

with the implementation of a bigger prize pool however there must come a counterweight. That counterweight (in my opinion) should be that you have to pass a certain criteria in order to play. Whether that be play in games or something of the like. It would be totally imbalanced if one player was able to make it to the finals / semi finals while being able to steam roll through an easier bracket while another player on the opposite side has to fight through all the vets and such.

I agree with what crazy says

Just thought to point it out that the brackets in MRTs have not been results of some rng. They are seeded. That is to avoid the other bracket being much easier than the other. And slso to make sure that you have to be able to beat high lvl players in order to advance semis or finals.

i like this idea a lot
i'm probably willing to throw in some money to the pool, and i'm sure a lot of other people would be too.

Yes this is a better format.

However the tournament scene is basically locked down between Riku, Noisy and Toilailee. That's not to say others can't win, I'm sure Holy could if he joined more, and Tex would always fancy his chances, but our reality is 4 or so players are likely to win.

Granted it's the same as everything competitive. But when it comes to contributing money...well...considering the ones who can win will all enter anyway.

Sure, let's give it a shot and see how it goes. I'll even throw in some money.

Haha that's a safe investment

Raffa wrote:Yes this is a better format.

However the tournament scene is basically locked down between Riku, Noisy and Toilailee. That's not to say others can't win, I'm sure Holy could if he joined more, and Tex would always fancy his chances, but our reality is 4 or so players are likely to win.

Granted it's the same as everything competitive. But when it comes to contributing money...well...considering the ones who can win will all enter anyway.

^ Pretty much my thoughts

I just imagine this ending up with us crowd funding those top players into richness. It's a great idea, but the top-end competitive scene feels like it's written in stone in the current state of DoW2.

Maybe crowd funding for the beginners tournament? I might be wrong but it feels like that would be a safer bet for having different winners every time.

Looks like I need to start practicing my 1v1 game. And show my a Donation button. I'll toss in some cash as well.

krakza wrote:Maybe crowd funding for the beginners tournament? I might be wrong but it feels like that would be a safer bet for having different winners every time.

Sounds risky

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I would think crowd funding also helps to pay for all the hard work that streamers/casters/organizers put in to make these awesome events happen for us!

And I'm gonna make you eat those words Raffa. Assuming I get time away from my business, next tourny is mine!

Discreet wrote:

krakza wrote:Maybe crowd funding for the beginners tournament? I might be wrong but it feels like that would be a safer bet for having different winners every time.

Sounds risky

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I know what you mean Krakza, since there will be a different winner each time, however the interest in beginners tournaments plus the random schelduling of them means that the prize pool would be a lot smaller.

I would, if I could, donate to a prize pool. But I can't.

I do think this is a good idea as it makes them a bit more competitive, but I also believe Raffa has a good point. The only winners we have seen so far are Toilailee, Noisy and Wurgl and Riku winning 1 each. A little concerning. Though, you never know, maybe it will encourage more people to play so we might see a more diverse selection of winners.

There's no magic divine touch that makes people unable to beat the Godly Riku/Noisy/Toil. People need to practice more. Practice 1v1 and stop playing team games. Practice on different maps than calderis. Try different builds than the cookie-cutter ones so that they get around perceived MU disadvantages.

The bigger financial incentive will hopefully spruce up the competitive 1v1 scene on elite because I can assure you all it's pretty crap atm.

With a bigger financial incentive I'm sure I'de find no ethical reason not to play the LA vs the Apo in the semi-finals onwards


Now that's all great and crowdfunding is a good idea for that reason, the bigger challenge here is how we manage to balance this out. You say there are going to be preliminary qualifying tournaments? If these are the same as the MRT will that mean certain players are restricted from participating in them? Like, we can't have 3 qualifying MRTs with Riku/Pega/Toil all playing in each of them, because then our big tournament has them 3 in it and the rest are subjectively selected? Maybe we should have so many MRTs which also act as a qualify for the big tournament and players can only enter one each, this means the pros will be reluctant to fight one another as if they do there's a greater chance of them losing their place in the big tournament and that means each MRT will have a lower skill level and hopefully showcase some intermediate players playing to win, rather than the beginners tournaments which themselves are kind of contradictory and ermwut?...

I think increasing the cash reward for the beginners tournaments is absolutely retarded. I know some people can't play 30hours of DOW a week, but that's not really my problem, ultimately players shouldn't be rewarded for being terrible at the game. There are plenty of players with a low playtime who are very good at the game because of their "skill", one example of which would be Dr Kukri but there are numerous others. If you monetize noob tournaments then you give no incentive to make anybody become decent at the game and what the hell is the point of that other than being stupidly regressive to our own sport?

Swiftsabre wrote:I do think this is a good idea as it makes them a bit more competitive, but I also believe Raffa has a good point. The only winners we have seen so far are Toilailee, Noisy and Wurgl and Riku winning 1 each. A little concerning. Though, you never know, maybe it will encourage more people to play so we might see a more diverse selection of winners.

No we won't, and that's the problem.

Wurgl won it because nobody had abused Lictor in tournaments before. The others are just better than everyone else. Remember skill level difference is less pronounced the larger the gamemode, that's why I'd support this idea for a 2v2 tournament - it wouldn't cause an abusefest of TM relays, multiple IG bunkers, etc.. Giving unbreakable field presence and 2v2 has much more potential for upsets based on teamwork.

I've pretty much accepted my 1v1 is never gonna be as good as Toil's, Noisy's or whoever's because they have that many thousands more hours a d are better players. At least in a 2v2 I can make it really hard for them to maximise their advantages by forcing the issue much more than possible in 1v1. Granted we should not lower the skill ceiling to win, but in a Bo3 there's a puny, puny chance I'd beat them in 2.

For ex. (Sorry, not boasting here) me and Holy were consistently beating Riku and Noisy in games before the tournament because we practised a lot together and didn't let them dictate the game. Now we lost in the real thing 2-1 (dat Lictor), but if me and Holy can do that others can too.

Sorry guys, not paying to watch Lictors stomp to wins, occasionally beaten by an IG

And a bigger cash prize for beginners is stupid for obvious reasons.

I don't want to come across as a stick in the mud but the times for this tournament are really bad for the players in South East Asia.

The hardest thing of course is the times for each country. You all know that it's very hard for the guys in Australia to play in the MRT and really give it our best shot. 3-5 am isn't something we can just muster out of thin air, myself and Fear are at an instant disadvantage the second we wake up. I can speak for the both of us in saying that if this is to go forth, given a community funded tournament and there might be a substantial prize pool (could get into the 250 dollar + range), that this is to be taken more strongly into consideration.

Even if we're not playing we'd still like the opportunity to watch it live and get the same show as everyone else.

I don't think it's an unreasonable request.

I do really like the idea don't get me wrong. It's a nice format and I'll be putting 50 dollars towards it whether I play or not.

I'm new to the game and these forums, but I think it is worth considering if large amounts of money are contributed to the prize pool, that there should be a maximum prize pool size per rumble. Leftover money should go towards the next rumble, which would contribute to the overall 'friendliness' of the tournament (no large, intimidating prize pools), and more consistent (each rumble awards similar amounts of prize money).

dreamycactus wrote:I'm new to the game and these forums, but I think it is worth considering if large amounts of money are contributed to the prize pool, that there should be a maximum prize pool size per rumble. Leftover money should go towards the next rumble, which would contribute to the overall 'friendliness' of the tournament (no large, intimidating prize pools), and more consistent (each rumble awards similar amounts of prize money).

That might just work, though keeping money left over many months until the next one just seems... wrong.

I am not suggesting that anyone would steal it, of course not, it just doesn't seem like it will end smoothly.

Stomp this post all you like since I am just as intruiged.

I agree with Phate comments about times and perhaps more thought with regard to times and even spread it over two consecutive weekends we can get more high level players from that part of the world involved?

I also agree with Raf in that while sure if ppl practice more & get more creative then they should stand a chance of beating the usual suspects but the prizes recipients will still be limited to these few unless there is a big upset or the larger prize(s) attracts more high levels players out of the woodwork (perhaps from retail even) who might be potential winners. I would be happy to donate some prize money but only towards a 2v2 format where there is more chance of the status quo being turned on it's head.

Raffa wrote:Yes this is a better format.

However the tournament scene is basically locked down between Riku, Noisy and Toilailee. That's not to say others can't win, I'm sure Holy could if he joined more, and Tex would always fancy his chances, but our reality is 4 or so players are likely to win.

Granted it's the same as everything competitive. But when it comes to contributing money...well...considering the ones who can win will all enter anyway.

Depending on the amount of donations I plan to make it worthwhile for every player that wins his Round 1 match and proceeds to round 2 - that way it would be possible for everyone to give it their best shot and have a chance for little something.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:There's no magic divine touch that makes people unable to beat the Godly Riku/Noisy/Toil. People need to practice more. Practice 1v1 and stop playing team games. Practice on different maps than calderis. Try different builds than the cookie-cutter ones so that they get around perceived MU disadvantages.

Now that's all great and crowdfunding is a good idea for that reason, the bigger challenge here is how we manage to balance this out. You say there are going to be preliminary qualifying tournaments? If these are the same as the MRT will that mean certain players are restricted from participating in them? Like, we can't have 3 qualifying MRTs with Riku/Pega/Toil all playing in each of them, because then our big tournament has them 3 in it and the rest are subjectively selected? Maybe we should have so many MRTs which also act as a qualify for the big tournament and players can only enter one each, this means the pros will be reluctant to fight one another as if they do there's a greater chance of them losing their place in the big tournament and that means each MRT will have a lower skill level and hopefully showcase some intermediate players playing to win, rather than the beginners tournaments which themselves are kind of contradictory and ermwut?...

I agree for the most part and I intend to create a points system for the MRT's or find an alternative way for qualification should the open format not work properly.

PhatE wrote:I don't want to come across as a stick in the mud but the times for this tournament are really bad for the players in South East Asia.

The hardest thing of course is the times for each country. You all know that it's very hard for the guys in Australia to play in the MRT and really give it our best shot. 3-5 am isn't something we can just muster out of thin air, myself and Fear are at an instant disadvantage the second we wake up. I can speak for the both of us in saying that if this is to go forth, given a community funded tournament and there might be a substantial prize pool (could get into the 250 dollar + range), that this is to be taken more strongly into consideration.

Even if we're not playing we'd still like the opportunity to watch it live and get the same show as everyone else.

I don't think it's an unreasonable request.

I do really like the idea don't get me wrong. It's a nice format and I'll be putting 50 dollars towards it whether I play or not.

I do realise that, which is why I didn't announce at what time exactly would the tournament take place. I'm open for suggestion, but unfortunately it's almost impossible to satisfy everyone, when it comes to time and time zone differences.

Tex wrote:I would think crowd funding also helps to pay for all the hard work that streamers/casters/organizers put in to make these awesome events happen for us!

And I'm gonna make you eat those words Raffa. Assuming I get time away from my business, next tourny is mine!

Unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, as a streamer I would feel guilty for taking any money for the tournament. I would think that, if not solely used for the prize pool, money could only be trickled out for the benefit of the community on a whole (site improvements? i.e. potentially buying a license for some software features to add to the site? I'm not sure). And that would only be on the off chance that such an option was possible and agreed upon by the community as a whole.

Of course, on the other hand ... if we're all down for putting away x amount of cash to encourage a post-tournament 3v3 match, wherein proceeds go towards buying Caeltos beer so he can drink and complain about how UP grey knights are as he co-casts with tournament streamers ... I'd be down. Much lolz would be had.

The last part is a joke. Maybe. Possibly? Hopefully not?

Commissar Vocaloid wrote:

Tex wrote:I would think crowd funding also helps to pay for all the hard work that streamers/casters/organizers put in to make these awesome events happen for us!

And I'm gonna make you eat those words Raffa. Assuming I get time away from my business, next tourny is mine!

Unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, as a streamer I would feel guilty for taking any money for the tournament. I would think that, if not solely used for the prize pool, money could only be trickled out for the benefit of the community on a whole (site improvements? i.e. potentially buying a license for some software features to add to the site? I'm not sure). And that would only be on the off chance that such an option was possible and agreed upon by the community as a whole.

Of course, on the other hand ... if we're all down for putting away x amount of cash to encourage a post-tournament 3v3 match, wherein proceeds go towards buying Caeltos beer so he can drink and complain about how UP grey knights are as he co-casts with tournament streamers ... I'd be down. Much lolz would be had.

The last part is a joke. Maybe. Possibly? Hopefully not?

Supplying Cael with alcohol sounds about right ^^, You've got a point. But yeah, I intend to use the donated money for tournament and community only, unless someone donates the money saying: "Hey, give that to casters, they deserve it"

Commissar Vocaloid wrote:

Tex wrote:I would think crowd funding also helps to pay for all the hard work that streamers/casters/organizers put in to make these awesome events happen for us!

And I'm gonna make you eat those words Raffa. Assuming I get time away from my business, next tourny is mine!

Unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, as a streamer I would feel guilty for taking any money for the tournament. I would think that, if not solely used for the prize pool, money could only be trickled out for the benefit of the community on a whole (site improvements? i.e. potentially buying a license for some software features to add to the site? I'm not sure). And that would only be on the off chance that such an option was possible and agreed upon by the community as a whole.

Of course, on the other hand ... if we're all down for putting away x amount of cash to encourage a post-tournament 3v3 match, wherein proceeds go towards buying Caeltos beer so he can drink and complain about how UP grey knights are as he co-casts with tournament streamers ... I'd be down. Much lolz would be had.

The last part is a joke. Maybe. Possibly? Hopefully not?

Sounds like a good idea. And yes, that did make the after tourney GK grudge match during MRT#8 particularly interesting.

Sounds like the easiest solution to your problem is to ban me, Noisy and Riku from playing.

for a qualifier tournament or a tournament that isn't as important that's a viable option, but for a regular monthly rumble tournament people are gonna wanna see the big names vs the big names in the big games

also i completely disagree with raffa's point. Sure those players are outstanding of course. But they're human, they have bad days and off days. They can lose just as easily as anyone can lose. So to say those 3 or 4 players will always win a tournament is rather odd in my opinion. Not to mention increased prize pool = higher level games since people are going to take the game way more seriously, practice more and push themselves more to get the bigger prize pool (myself included to an extent....damn $600/month rent)