Dawn of War Codex

General problems of Chaos dreads are the lack of vehicle support the chaos faction has and the (Dreadnaughts) steep decline in power in T III.
Mark of Khorne is the most useful out of the bunch, but the base version and especially mark of Tzeentch are impacted by this a lot.

And this gets even worse in teamgames.


1.Mark of Tzeentch (MoT)

- takes away your minor melee resist

- replaces your autocannon with a missle launcher, which is only effective against large targets and not quite long range

- frenzied barrage is a pure control ability with little damage output

- Doesn t buff your hp or give any resistances.


So I´d suggest

give MoT-Dreadnaughts underslung bolter inferno damage/visuals from MarkOfTzeentch Marines AND
allow the dreadnaught to switch between krak/frag missles

OR

make it into a pure ranged dread with the autocannon from the base-version remaining and inferno damage+visuals on the underslung bolter.




Increase price of the upgrade then (maybe 15 power and 40 req)


2. "Eternal war veteran"-upgrade suggestion for T-III

Boosts damage of all weapons by 20% and allows the dreadnaught to demoralize on kill /same as Chaos Terminators),
cost maybe 25 power and 75 req.


To give it more utility in the lategame.

These suggestions would emphasize the dreadnaughts strengths (firepower)while not negating their weaknesses (melee/low hp) too much.

I´d also suggest

- lower the power cost to 110
- increase the production time by 6 seconds

Since the chaos dread is not quite on par with its loyalist equivalent (no inspire on kill, less health) it shouldn t cost as much power.

While I won't comment on the suggested changes to the upgrades because I know too little but I like the idea of a T3 upgrade like the loyalist dread and the wraithlord have.

I'm thinking something along the lines of "Daemonic possesion" which gives a slight health increase and changing it's type to daemon (so it gets boni when being worshipped). Nothing too game changing but still something so it can stand it's own in T3.

Greets
Schepp himself

Tdread is one of the best scaling t2 walkers if not the best as it can be upgraded if your opponent is in t3 to outtrade most tanks

Inekura wrote:Tdread is one of the best scaling t2 walkers if not the best as it can be upgraded if your opponent is in t3 to outtrade most tanks

And if your opponent doesn t have tanks or frontline vehicles? What is MoT good against?

Schepp himself wrote:I'm thinking something along the lines of "Daemonic possesion" which gives a slight health increase and changing it's type to daemon (so it gets boni when being worshipped). Nothing too game changing but still something so it can stand it's own in T3.

Greets
Schepp himself

Demonic attribute would be much too strong imo, giving back 10 hp/s in addition to repair...

TE | NoSkill wrote:

Inekura wrote:Tdread is one of the best scaling t2 walkers if not the best as it can be upgraded if your opponent is in t3 to outtrade most tanks

And if your opponent doesn t have tanks or frontline vehicles? What is MoT good against?

Why would you upgrade for tzeentch if there is no vehicule?
And if you killed the vehicule, the ability and its melee are still very good vs infantry. Ofc, it's less strong than a Kdread or a default dread vs infantry, but man, you can't have everything...

and about a T3 upgrade, why not tbh, but not sure about the daemonic one.
Imagine a khorne frenzied dread under worship, it will be unkillable

GuruSkippy wrote:

TE | NoSkill wrote:

Inekura wrote:Tdread is one of the best scaling t2 walkers if not the best as it can be upgraded if your opponent is in t3 to outtrade most tanks

And if your opponent doesn t have tanks or frontline vehicles? What is MoT good against?

Why would you upgrade for tzeentch if there is no vehicule?
And if you killed the vehicule, the ability and its melee are still very good vs infantry. Ofc, it's less strong than a Kdread or a default dread vs infantry, but man, you can't have everything...

You wouldn t.
And once you´ve dealt with the vehicle you have a lot of deadweight at hand, especially if the enemy switches to a more infantry intense playstyle.
So I think it is justified to give the MoT Dread something to be less circumstancial and more depndant on your actual skill as a player.
No skill of yours is going to make the missles hit infantry better after all...

Use melee and the missile ability man... The missile ability is here exactly for what you want...
What can I say

GuruSkippy wrote:Use melee and the missile ability man... The missile ability is here exactly for what you want...
What can I say

What do I want then?
Because I think these capabilities are NOT enough and I have laid out above why I think that this is the case.

TE | NoSkill wrote:

GuruSkippy wrote:Use melee and the missile ability man... The missile ability is here exactly for what you want...
What can I say

What do I want then?
Because I think these capabilities are NOT enough and I have laid out above why I think that this is the case.

So you think a upgrade that counters half the opponents late game options ( for some even the entire)
Is bad?
That's like saying my set up team should do same dmg in melee as nobz cus outside of their designed purpose they don't do much.
The entire game is based around rock paper scissor principe and having a t2 upgrade option to fight tanks is a really strong one.
I'd say if it kills a tank it already payed for itself.
Besides that the barrage is a nice control tool and it can even fuck up high model squads.
You don't need everything to do everything

Inekura wrote:

TE | NoSkill wrote:

GuruSkippy wrote:Use melee and the missile ability man... The missile ability is here exactly for what you want...
What can I say

What do I want then?
Because I think these capabilities are NOT enough and I have laid out above why I think that this is the case.

So you think a upgrade that counters half the opponents late game options ( for some even the entire)
Is bad?

Yes, because it does come with trade-offs I listed above

Inekura wrote:

TE | NoSkill wrote:

GuruSkippy wrote:Use melee and the missile ability man... The missile ability is here exactly for what you want...
What can I say

What do I want then?
Because I think these capabilities are NOT enough and I have laid out above why I think that this is the case.

That's like saying my set up team should do same dmg in melee as nobz cus outside of their designed purpose they don't do much.
The entire game is based around rock paper scissor principe and having a t2 upgrade option to fight tanks is a really strong one.
I'd say if it kills a tank it already payed for itself.

Devs are a T1 unit with upgrade options (vengeance rounds) to literally make them effective against all targets. They are strong at what they do and vengeance upgrade doesn t change that nor does the lascannon (it´s cheap and has a lot of impact for a T1 unit)

Chaos dreads are already effective against vehicles and MoT increases this for a trade-off instead of keeping anti-infantry capabilities.
(Also dreads are the most expensive T 2 option, so they should have some late-game practicality)

My suggestions don t touch the melee weakness of the MoT dread while emphasizing the ranged strength. Counters remain the same.

To have a more clean comparison;

MoT Dread is in a state comparable to when you would give the Leman Russ Executioner plasma instead of plasma cannon damage.
After all, why should it be good against everything ?

noskill again not understanding how situational upgrades work.
shocker

OceansAteAlaska wrote:noskill again not understanding how situational upgrades work.
shocker

I do.
I think that this upgrade (taking the unit cost and the faction into account) SHOULDN T be as situational as it is cryppeling the dreads anti-small capability.

"I do.
I think that this upgrade (taking the unit cost and the faction into account) SHOULDN T be as situational as it is cryppeling the dreads anti-small capability."

And that is the core of the problem. out of all the players in Elite mod only you seem to think so.
Like your suggestion for heavy flamers to do melta damage

The great Cornholio wrote:"I do.
I think that this upgrade (taking the unit cost and the faction into account) SHOULDN T be as situational as it is cryppeling the dreads anti-small capability."

And that is the core of the problem. out of all the players in Elite mod only you seem to think so.
Like your suggestion for heavy flamers to do melta damage

4 different people have commented here, that´s hardly "all of elite players".

Also it was melta damage on the ability and not the weapon itsself, that´s a difference.

Please elaborate why my suggestions are detrimental to improving the game.

"Please elaborate why my suggestions are detrimental to improving the game."

Dont have to... people in the thread have already done that just fine.

The great Cornholio wrote:"Please elaborate why my suggestions are detrimental to improving the game."

Dont have to... people in the thread have already done that just fine.

So be it.
None of us has a say in the final decision anyways.

I don't mean to play devil's advodate here, but I think this is an interesting topic.

I honestly really like the idea of the inferno MoT underslung bolter. The other suggestions im not too sure though.

But also I can't agree when I read that some people think the MoT Dread is a counter to a T3 tank. The simple facts that the T3 tanks (minus NPred perhaps) out-speed the dread and that the MoT Dread's missile don't snare, that can't mean the MoT Dread counters the tank. The MoT Dread can help deal with the tank sure, but doesn't counter it.

The only thing a MoT Dread counters is another walker, and even a DD has an easy escape option from it. MoT Dread can be a good choice versus a transport but again, you still don't have a snare. And chaos doesn't have a form of soft AV + snare like most other races do.

neutraL wrote:I don't mean to play devil's advodate here, but I think this is an interesting topic.

I honestly really like the idea of the inferno MoT underslung bolter. The other suggestions im not too sure though.

But also I can't agree when I read that some people think the MoT Dread is a counter to a T3 tank. The simple facts that the T3 tanks (minus NPred perhaps) out-speed the dread and that the MoT Dread's missile don't snare, that can't mean the MoT Dread counters the tank. The MoT Dread can help deal with the tank sure, but doesn't counter it.

The only thing a MoT Dread counters is another walker, and even a DD has an easy escape option from it. MoT Dread can be a good choice versus a transport but again, you still don't have a snare. And chaos doesn't have a form of soft AV + snare like most other races do.

MoT vs tank matchup depends on map
MoT is pretty shit, should cost less and do less imo

PianoMan wrote:

neutraL wrote:I don't mean to play devil's advodate here, but I think this is an interesting topic.

I honestly really like the idea of the inferno MoT underslung bolter. The other suggestions im not too sure though.

But also I can't agree when I read that some people think the MoT Dread is a counter to a T3 tank. The simple facts that the T3 tanks (minus NPred perhaps) out-speed the dread and that the MoT Dread's missile don't snare, that can't mean the MoT Dread counters the tank. The MoT Dread can help deal with the tank sure, but doesn't counter it.

The only thing a MoT Dread counters is another walker, and even a DD has an easy escape option from it. MoT Dread can be a good choice versus a transport but again, you still don't have a snare. And chaos doesn't have a form of soft AV + snare like most other races do.

MoT vs tank matchup depends on map
MoT is pretty shit, should cost less and do less imo

I don t think this is the appropriate approach, making it less effective/cheaper.
Makes the basic autocannon just that much more useful, since the launcher is still ineffective vs infantry.

What the Fuck. Are you crazy? Tdread can duel tanks so easily, no wonder chaos t2 is one of the strongest. Most matchups if needed you don't have to go t3 at all, since on t2 you have pretty much everything you need to deal with most of the stuff. He is a very strong walker, and also has the same weaknessess like every other does. Frenzied barrage is meant to do what it is supposed to do. CONTROL STUFF. And he doesn't need a t3 upgrade, hes state at the moment is pretty much fine and doesn't need to be changed. I have no clue where did you get this idea. Do you even play chaos in the first place??????

Gordian Vorenthul wrote:What the Fuck. Are you crazy? Tdread can duel tanks so easily, no wonder chaos t2 is one of the strongest. Most matchups if needed you don't have to go t3 at all, since on t2 you have pretty much everything you need to deal with most of the stuff. He is a very strong walker, and also has the same weaknessess like every other does. Frenzied barrage is meant to do what it is supposed to do. CONTROL STUFF. And he doesn't need a t3 upgrade, hes state at the moment is pretty much fine and doesn't need to be changed. I have no clue where did you get this idea. Do you even play chaos in the first place??????

Yeah, I´m level 51 or so, mainly sourcerer, with a bit of Chaos Lord. I also like to play as thematic as the enemy allows, so I go for MoT Dread more often then neccessary.
That´s why I felt the need to plead my case here.

Dreads cannot force an engagement on tanks, because tanks are faster = dreadnaughts < tanks
Frenzied barrage is a pure control ability, useless if you are getting swamped/focused.

And that´s not enough for such an expensive unit to fall flat of its investment cost once T III hits.
It doesn t matter if this happens not too often, it does happen and that´s reason enough.

TE | NoSkill wrote:

Gordian Vorenthul wrote:What the Fuck. Are you crazy? Tdread can duel tanks so easily, no wonder chaos t2 is one of the strongest. Most matchups if needed you don't have to go t3 at all, since on t2 you have pretty much everything you need to deal with most of the stuff. He is a very strong walker, and also has the same weaknessess like every other does. Frenzied barrage is meant to do what it is supposed to do. CONTROL STUFF. And he doesn't need a t3 upgrade, hes state at the moment is pretty much fine and doesn't need to be changed. I have no clue where did you get this idea. Do you even play chaos in the first place??????

Yeah, I´m level 51 or so, mainly sourcerer, with a bit of Chaos Lord. I also like to play as thematic as the enemy allows, so I go for MoT Dread more often then neccessary.
That´s why I felt the need to plead my case here.

Dreads cannot force an engagement on tanks, because tanks are faster = dreadnaughts < tanks
Frenzied barrage is a pure control ability, useless if you are getting swamped/focused.

And that´s not enough for such an expensive unit to fall flat of its investment cost once T III hits.
It doesn t matter if this happens not too often, it does happen and that´s reason enough.

And I'm a level 60 Chaos One-trick, i don't play thematic because it's a game that has to be balanced so it is playable. Otherwise we would have 1 CSM/Tac model oneshotting guardsman....
Speed doesn't matter, you don't just bullrush a fucking tank because ofc it has to be faster than walker. Still, tdread damage is more than enough to kill a tank.
You will be swamped and focused, because people realize how much of a threat to their vehicles tdread is. The key is to prevent that.
It doesn't fall flat of it's investment cost in t3, i've won plenty of games in t3 with tdreads as my only av choice.
That's reason enough? Lol. I think otherwise.
Pretty sure you're just another type of player "I can't use my units well, which means that they need to be buffed".
Srsly, learn the fuckin game sense before you start posting balance suggestions or don't suggest at all.


EDIT: Tdread has more range than tanks, with the exception of fire prism but it's an artilery tank.

Gordian Vorenthul wrote:

TE | NoSkill wrote:

Gordian Vorenthul wrote:What the Fuck. Are you crazy? Tdread can duel tanks so easily, no wonder chaos t2 is one of the strongest. Most matchups if needed you don't have to go t3 at all, since on t2 you have pretty much everything you need to deal with most of the stuff. He is a very strong walker, and also has the same weaknessess like every other does. Frenzied barrage is meant to do what it is supposed to do. CONTROL STUFF. And he doesn't need a t3 upgrade, hes state at the moment is pretty much fine and doesn't need to be changed. I have no clue where did you get this idea. Do you even play chaos in the first place??????

Yeah, I´m level 51 or so, mainly sourcerer, with a bit of Chaos Lord. I also like to play as thematic as the enemy allows, so I go for MoT Dread more often then neccessary.
That´s why I felt the need to plead my case here.

Dreads cannot force an engagement on tanks, because tanks are faster = dreadnaughts < tanks
Frenzied barrage is a pure control ability, useless if you are getting swamped/focused.

And that´s not enough for such an expensive unit to fall flat of its investment cost once T III hits.
It doesn t matter if this happens not too often, it does happen and that´s reason enough.

And I'm a level 60 Chaos One-trick, i don't play thematic because it's a game that has to be balanced so it is playable. Otherwise we would have 1 CSM/Tac model oneshotting guardsman....
Speed doesn't matter, you don't just bullrush a fucking tank because ofc it has to be faster than walker. Still, tdread damage is more than enough to kill a tank.
You will be swamped and focused, because people realize how much of a threat to their vehicles tdread is. The key is to prevent that.
It doesn't fall flat of it's investment cost in t3, i've won plenty of games in t3 with tdreads as my only av choice.
That's reason enough? Lol. I think otherwise.
Pretty sure you're just another type of player "I can't use my units well, which means that they need to be buffed".
Srsly, learn the fuckin game sense before you start posting balance suggestions or don't suggest at all.


EDIT: Tdread has more range than tanks, with the exception of fire prism but it's an artilery tank.

If you cannot screen out the tank/ be where the tank is then all the damage you COULD bring to bear does not matter.

Also this is not about MoT Dread vs Tanks, it´s about MoT vs infantry/smaller targets.
Because MoT cannot fight them effectively while the base version can.
Upgrades, which depend so purely on what the enemy does and not what you can do, are really bad

And again, all of these problems get amplified in teamgames.

TE | NoSkill wrote:

Gordian Vorenthul wrote:

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Yeah, I´m level 51 or so, mainly sourcerer, with a bit of Chaos Lord. I also like to play as thematic as the enemy allows, so I go for MoT Dread more often then neccessary.
That´s why I felt the need to plead my case here.

Dreads cannot force an engagement on tanks, because tanks are faster = dreadnaughts < tanks
Frenzied barrage is a pure control ability, useless if you are getting swamped/focused.

And that´s not enough for such an expensive unit to fall flat of its investment cost once T III hits.
It doesn t matter if this happens not too often, it does happen and that´s reason enough.

And I'm a level 60 Chaos One-trick, i don't play thematic because it's a game that has to be balanced so it is playable. Otherwise we would have 1 CSM/Tac model oneshotting guardsman....
Speed doesn't matter, you don't just bullrush a fucking tank because ofc it has to be faster than walker. Still, tdread damage is more than enough to kill a tank.
You will be swamped and focused, because people realize how much of a threat to their vehicles tdread is. The key is to prevent that.
It doesn't fall flat of it's investment cost in t3, i've won plenty of games in t3 with tdreads as my only av choice.
That's reason enough? Lol. I think otherwise.
Pretty sure you're just another type of player "I can't use my units well, which means that they need to be buffed".
Srsly, learn the fuckin game sense before you start posting balance suggestions or don't suggest at all.


EDIT: Tdread has more range than tanks, with the exception of fire prism but it's an artilery tank.

If you cannot screen out the tank/ be where the tank is then all the damage you COULD bring to bear does not matter.

Also this is not about MoT Dread vs Tanks, it´s about MoT vs infantry/smaller targets.
Because MoT cannot fight them effectively while the base version can.
Which is bad for the upgrade.

And again, all of these problems get amplified in teamgames.

The fuck? You seriously want tdread to be more effective vs infantry?????????
Ofc he will be less effective vs infantry because maybe it's anti-vehicle upgrade??
Plus he deals very well because of Frenzied Barrage, suppresion + DoT damage is enough. Also, his melee dmg remains the same with autocannon, so it can be a threat to infantry which isn't dedicated to deal with vehicles in melee
If you play teamgames only, this disscusion is pointless, 3v3 doesn't represent how the game is truly to be played. It's a clusterfuck to mess around with stuff, not playing seriously.

my lascannon should kill infantry then too .
oh if no inf are around my *insert any anti inf superiority unit here* should kill tanks too because apparently its not enough to have a designated purpose and every unit should do everything because "Upgrades, which depend so purely on what the enemy does and not what you can do, are really bad "

Inekura wrote:my lascannon should kill infantry then too .
oh if no inf are around my *insert any anti inf superiority unit here* should kill tanks too because apparently its not enough to have a designated purpose and every unit should do everything because "Upgrades, which depend so purely on what the enemy does and not what you can do, are really bad "

So should rocket launchers right? If there are no vehicles around, they should shred infantry too

Gordian Vorenthul wrote:

Inekura wrote:my lascannon should kill infantry then too .
oh if no inf are around my *insert any anti inf superiority unit here* should kill tanks too because apparently its not enough to have a designated purpose and every unit should do everything because "Upgrades, which depend so purely on what the enemy does and not what you can do, are really bad "

So should rocket launchers right? If there are no vehicles around, they should shred infantry too

Maybe that's why he wanted melta dmg on heavy flamers so that termis with heavy flamer can counter vehicles if no inf is around GalaxyBrain