Dawn of War Codex

Hello there!
I am creating this thread here purely out of interest to this mod, for the wish of playing it, and for a wish of seeing it expand. I do not play DoW2 all that often, but the Elite Mod is easily the favourite way for me to play it! I also enjoy immensely on watching casts done on youtube for it.
I am not offering any help for modelling or doing any kind of textures, to get that out of the way (I will trust the elite-team to do whatever they do!), and I am not expecting you to do everything I will tell you to and expand this mod in every way that I will suggest.

So.
What I am proposing here is a discussion as well as some ideas for implementing Dark Eldar as a new race. I don't know what kind of schedule you have and I am most certainly not expecting you to get to them anytime soon! But with the way Grey Knights have been added, I am sure this mod can get more done with time!
I am guessing you are more interested in having Tau as the next faction, and I will look forward on seeing them as well, but nevertheless.


Commander and where to implement them?
An obvious commander for Dark Eldar would be the Archon, which is what I would suggest as well. It could be the fourth commander for Eldar.
I thought some equipment he could have, but before I start throwing ideas for those, I will just focus on what the archon would be. A Melee Commander with a little capability for range (one of the wargear I thought was a blaster for an anti-tank commander).
Differences to other eldar commanders wouldn't be too large, especially to the warlock, at initial stats. Fleet is a possible starting ability, but otherwise a good standard speed and melee damage (regular melee), would be a good start.
For health, relatively weak but able to become some kind of a tank with the right wargear (anyone who has played against a shadowfield-archon in TT will know...)

Units?
I have a lot of ideas for them and plenty of ways making them unique. I don't want to go through all of them yet but maybe tier 1 for starters.

First unit: Kabalite Warriors. Easiest way to make them is to start from the dire avenger/guardian model and to edit it a bit for more appropriate look (the 5th edition warriors look quite amazing and have some good artwork).
I am not the best for balance, and I am hoping for all ideas for the cost of the units to anyone else (another thing you can suggest). 6 starting models, lower HP per model than Dire Avengers but more when all of them combined (maybe 5-10% less HP per model). 1/3rd or so less damage from their weapons, with small damage over time (which I think should be sort of a theme for this army)

Wyches. Again easiest way to start is from the Banshee-model. But wyches would function much differently. 5 or maybe 6 models to start with. No power melee, they can fight against heavy infantry but are better in tying them up than actually killing them, making them better against light infantry. Less HP, but a passive damage resistance from CC-attacks (killing them in retreat would be very tough), more so than other melee units. Also slightly faster. As a starting ability, Combat Drugs that will break suppression and increase attack speed momentarily.
Against other units, I would see them (without adding too many additional modifiers from other units/effects/upgrades), win against howling banshees, tie against heretics (counter-counter-melee), possibly lose or tie to sluggas(?) and win against scouts. Against assault marines, it would probably be a long combat they would lose.

Venom. This is a rip-off on the IGs sentinel. Can decap but can't cap, heavy infantry armour. I don't know how much it is possible to edit some basic stuff on the vehicles, but a jumping vehicle that can hop over cover instead of smashing through it sounds like something for the venom. Anti-infantry, can be good against heavy infantry as well. Shield upgrades on later tiers?

Trueborn. Dark Eldar are about being fast and it does not really involve set-up teams. However, Trueborn would be the closest thing to it. Default as a splinter cannon, 3 models, does not need to set up to fire but is considerably better while stationary. Does not suppress but has an ability for it ("Aiming, what's that?"). Can be upgraded to a Dark Lance in T2, which could possibly require set-up?

Wracks. Also 3 models, start as a damage over time-melee unit. Two possible upgrades to choose from in T1, one is a hexrifle, turning them to a sniper, and one is a liquifier gun, turning them into a flamer-unit. Toughest to kill from all the other DE-infantry (in T1 at least) and can get an acothyst who makes them cap 50% faster in T2.



These are all just some ideas to start with, I would like to hear some comments on the idea. Mainly, would you play Dark Eldar/enjoy playing against them in Elite Mod, as well as what do these units sound like for a start.

I already have a unit-tree thought up for the next tiers, but I will wait a bit before writing up more ^^

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=796&p=22870&hilit=ideas+for+dark+eldar+talos#p22798

There are my ideas.

Uh oh, new unit/faction/ability thread. Don't be offended if people get angry, it is just there have been a lot of threads along these lines (though to give you credit, whilst some stuff you suggest is questionable, you have actually thought about it).

About the commander, we have someone who can (hopefully) implement new factions, so no fourth commander business, they can be a faction of their own.

Caeltos has actually spoken on the matter of Dark Eldar saying that the two factions he is more geared to doing next is Dark Eldar/Tau, so I suppose any input might be good, just remember that balance is a huge aspect, so some people may well question your decisions like a decapping Venom which in my mind is straight up ridiculous.

There is a lot of work going into new factions: models, voicelines, balance, wargear, potential build orders and synergy. It takes time, so whilst we see these threads, the factions will not be touched for a very long time.

Look at all the previous patch notes and see how much stuff GK has been through. I think it would be better if GK balance is settled before looking at the prospect of adding other factions/race.

The search function here is very limited, the only way I could get one through trying to look for a DE-thread was by searching with "archon" (as well as "Kabal"), which I thought would be included.

So sorry, I had not found any other threads.

EDIT:
I understand they wont be in a development in a long while, just wanted to see thoughts for it.
I don't see anything ridiculous in a venom decapping, especially since there are vehicles to do so in T1 and I gave no stats or price for it.

EDIT:

Aertes wrote:http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=796&p=22870&hilit=ideas+for+dark+eldar+talos#p22798

There are my ideas.

Very nice, but I would rather use up weapons and units from the TT. Also Jetbikes would probably be a quite tough unit to start implementing when no one has any kind of bikes.

Bikes don't work well, there is a reason Relic did not include them. Also, I know you provided no stats, but we are tlaking about Dark Eldar here, speedy little buggers, giving them a tier 1 vehicle that can decap is just wrong, so broken as the rest of the army doesn't exactly lack speed. Even a tier 1 vehicle is a bit ridiculous as they are so quick and hard hitting it has no place on the roster there.

Swiftsabre wrote:Also, I know you provided no stats, but we are tlaking about Dark Eldar here, speedy little buggers, giving them a tier 1 vehicle that can decap is just wrong, so broken as the rest of the army doesn't exactly lack speed. Even a tier 1 vehicle is a bit ridiculous as they are so quick and hard hitting it has no place on the roster there.

I hear you, and I will include that in my next ideas



So, upgrades and cost, and the purpose of the units. I am going to go with just T1 now, not going to write up any rosters for next ones yet (although later units would matter of course on how the ones in T1 should be like, true)

Kabalite Warriors in T1, the general combat unit. I have been thinking would it be bad to have them an anti-tank weapon to be upgraded with in T2, the blaster? None of the starter units can have a strong anti-tank weapon, so I decided against it.
However, they could get a splinter cannon for additional anti-infantry in T2.
Another upgrade is the Sybarite. Their nature is much different from exarchs, and I thought they could be a good one for T1, like the ork nobs. The Sybarite would add in another model (taking them to 7) with a splinter rifle and a cool, samurai-style banner. He would also make them a detector unit.
I don't think they need too much abilities, but I suppose they should have access to fleet, and have another upgrade for that (and probably a small health-buff, like in aspect of the avenger). Otherwise, all the abilities they would be limited to is the same trueborn get with a splinter cannon, allowing them to suppress if they get it on T2.
Their cost should be maybe somewhere around 300 requisition, and no power. I say again that I am not that good for balancing prices for this game ^^

Their purpose is to be simply a shooty unit with capabilities for melee (Bayonets!!). The CSM were a lot like the other tactical marines but better in closecombat, right? While I don't like the idea of comparing those two as the same thing as the differences between the DA and KW (Kabalites), I would like it if the Dark Eldar starter unit has a good chance of winning against shooty units in melee. They should lose to any melee-oriented squad but be able to charge against another shooty unit to force them off instead of a cover-to-cover shoot-out.


Next, the venom.
I will keep my opinion on that DE need a T1 vehicle, and that I don't really see a better place for the venom than that. The decapping may be a bit too much, so it could serve as a more mobile platform for a splintercannon before the kabalites get one. It would also be a useful scout, but no transport capability.
For upgrades, I thought of these:
"Hekatrix Pilot" in T2, which, now that it isn't in T1, will allow it to DECAP It would add more use to it especially if the army starts seeing more and more splinter cannons everywhere else.
"Flickerfield", also T2. Basically a shield that drains energy when hit. Not a very good one (not like the falcon), but something that would reward the venom for surviving as far as T2.
For cost, it could be on the same line as the sentinel. It could be the first purchase for a DE-player, allowing for some mobile firepower but possibly limiting map-control until it gets an upgrade to be able to annoy the opponent with quick decaps.

So, like I partly already said, their purpose is to be an early firepower-platform. Their casualty-rate going to T2 should be higher than a sentinel with more fragility, but their upgrades and mobility would also be something that can make a player purchase it (or replace a lost one) when he hits T2. Venom-spam is a thing y'know.



Then trueborn. Starting not only with another splinter cannon, they start with two shardcarbines for some close-range action as well as the ability to suppress (which the venom can't do).
Going to T2, they would be presented with two upgrades.
Dark Lance, which changes the splinter cannon to an anti-tank weapon. I have not yet thought about too much how it would work, but I suppose copying the bright lance is the most appropriate way (they even have the same stats on TT...). It would however be more mobile, because the trueborn are not a set-up team, so they just have to stop to fire their big gun. It would, however, need to face the target and has to turn around slower than the others, like a set-up team. I don't know how possible that is without making the dark lance a weapon with the shown facing (like the set-up teams do), but it could also work that way by making them set up and tear down instantly.
Then the Dracon, which adds a 4th model with a splinter pistol and a power sword. He is also equipped with a Phantasm Grenade Launcher, which will give the squad a defensive stun-grenade, to allow escapes if a melee-unit gets too close. The Dracon would also be a detector.
If the squad is upgraded with both the dark lance and the dracon, the dracon could also get a blast pistol, a shorter version of the dark lance. It could work as a small counter to vehicles that try to escape the dark lance by driving closer.
Their cost should include a reasonable amount of power, so they, of course, are not one of the units you get to buy first.

The purpose of the trueborn is more firepower, of course. It also offers a good option for anti-tank, so in many ways it functions like a devastator squad or another, similar unit. It could also work as a small harassing unit by moving to cap something and scaring any light infantry away with the shardcarbines. The splinter cannon should also be able to fire, if they are still equipped with it.
The Dracon should be capable in melee like sergeants usually are, but they should still not be too effective *that* close.



Wyches would be the best T1 melee-unit the Dark Eldar can get, and be able to scale as a tarpitting unit to later tiers. No power weapons available except with one upgrade, but having a larger melee resistance should make up for their low health in CC.
They would start with the Combat Drugs-ability. It would break suppression (and grant immunity for it for a while), and increase attack speed. I wouldn't see it as a way to counter heavy bolters (if a squad of wyches, especially lvl 1, run all the way to a set-up team and use combat drugs as soon as they get suppressed, they should get butchered if the gun fires at them the whole time) but to flank one (not give it too much time to fire), escape sticky situations (especially if they get suppressed from a more unusual source) and as a general combat boost ("who cares if we are not suppressed, take them anywayz")
Their upgrades at T1 would include something even more similar to the "aspect of the avenger", giving them fleet, small health-buff and plasma grenades. Because wyches like grenades a lot. They should make for a great chasing unit this way, being able to still deal damage with a thrown grenade if they cant catch a unit or they wish to engage another one in melee instead of starting to chase them.
Tier 2 would include a few choices for them, as well as a squad leader.
The Hekatrix would add them a 6th member, as well as a power weapon in the form of an agonizer-whip.
They can also purchase an upgrade for special weapons, giving them a hydra gauntlet and razorflails to two of the models (one each). The razorflail is a simple damage increase, still remaining regular melee. The Hydra gauntlet adds damage over time to the attacks of the wych (it totally should be poisoned on TT...). This upgrade also adds them haywire grenades, making them a little more flexible against vehicles. Because wyches like grenades.
The last upgrade which I thought would be interesting is a copy of Sternguard or Vanguard Veterans. An upgrade to Bloodbrides. This would replace the squad with 5 elite wyches (the hekatrix bloodbrides), with a multitude of weapons each, including a razorflail, hydra gauntlets, a shardnet and impaler, a power sword and an agonizer. Their abilities would be fleet as well as a special stun attack given by the shardnet.
Their cost would also be a healthy amount of requisition and a little power. A mid-late T1 unit.

The purpose of wyches? CC-unit, good on killing tons of non-CC units and good on not dying to tons of CC-units. Their biggest weakness is being focused down, a lot like banshees. They would get more capabilities for supporting friendly units with their abilities with upgrades later on.
Or they can just turn into a much more killy unit (but losing their grenades. Don't the vanguard do too?).
They would work best when first split from the main force, flanking the enemy from another angle. This would be especially nice with a transport (a raider in T2, which I will not get into yet)


Finally (for this post), wracks. Their starting form is a melee-unit that is a little tougher than wyches (per model, but not for the whole squad) and a little damage over time. They are to be specialized with upgrades in T1. They are also the garrison-counter for DE.
One of their upgrades in T1 is the hexrifle, giving them a sniper weapon and an ability to stun a unit and deal a large amount of damage over time for one model (possibly gibbing it after a while). This would naturally make them stick further from the enemy, but they would still retain a lot of melee effectiveness if they are caught. However, they shouldn't last too long in melee, since the whole squad isn't supposed to be the killy melee-unit to begin with.
The other upgrade is Liquifier gun, giving them a flamer that I can see looking a lot like the one the Plague Champion has. I haven't thought of any ability for them, maybe something like the ork sluggas have with burnas? With this upgrade, the squad would retain more of their melee effectiveness (the model with the liquifier deals the same amount of damage he used to) and the squad will, of course, more likely be much more closer to the enemy, so all the better.
On T2, a simple upgrade would give them an acothyst, taking them to 4 models, increasing their melee effectiveness to about the same point as an unupgraded squad of wyches (and their health as well, the acothyst is a tough guy), and making them cap 50% faster. A good upgrade no matter which weapon you pick, but probably best for a liquifier guy.
Their cost would be a little power and then req, like the wyches.

One of their purposes, like with every unit, is to be killy. They are a support unit, with a few different uses in combat and being able to stand up for themselves in melee too if the enemy sends something to fight them. They would be slower than most others (not as slow as the wraithguard eldar have, but somewhere between them and guardians), but far more tougher per model, making them hard to bleed with. Also, they would be the best garrison counter for DE.



That is it for now, any more thoughts or comments are welcome. I hope these ideas and suggestions will help the developers at some point

I appreciate the amount of content you put in, it shows that you think about it.

BUT...

Kabalite Warriors: I see them as something similar to Dire Avengers, and whilst you ably recall how CSM and tacs are differentiated by melee and all, I think the way that the two Eldar factions should respond should maybe not be so blunt. Differentiate them of course, but I feel that this variation is taken by CSM already, so how about we look elsewhere. Perhaps like DA, they should start at around about 270 req, seems a fair cost for a high DPS squish fest that Eldar are, then perhaps give them an upgrade which particularly lore wise could be Power from Pain (though let us not make the mistake that lore comes first, quite the opposite). This instead of giving them a straight up health increase and some shiny gubbinz to mess around with, could maybe add health to the squad but less than DA, and give them an active ability that increases their combat effectiveness the longer they stay in combat. I am sure if someone of any knowledge looked at this thread, these ideas my well be found wanting, but they are suggestions and criticisms of other ones out there. The stacking buff should cap at some point however. A Sybarite for the squad should be a T2 upgrade for the squad, Splinter pistol and Agoniser or something like that and should provide a passive buff the the active ability Power from Pain, since Dark Eldar are meant to get stronger the longer they last. As for weapons in tier 1 the option of a shredder should/could be there, though they should not steal the show in Tier 1 as a ranged unit, and tier 2 providing the grounds for a blaster for AV.

Trueborn: I am intruiged by the suggestions for this unit, as I did not visualise them as a setup team given their elevated status and combat variety, so maybe they should act as something more like snipers but with a high rate of fire (short setup time, no arc of fire). The danger I see here though is we are encroaching on the way GK works, copying the ideas behind Purgation like the no setup time/limited setup time whilst also making them too unbalanced. A Trueborn squad very much confuses me since they are in fact they are close up ranged specialists, but hey, Plague marines wield a rocket launcher, so anything can happen.

Venom: No, there is no need for a tier 1 transport for Eldar, it would be horrible on the grounds of how maneuverable Dark Eldar are already. Think why Eldar does not have one, they can fleet, use gates and have a generally high movement speed. This should never come to pass, it just doesn't fit in.

Wyches: Yes, a good anti melee/range squad for tier 1 much like banshees but following a roll of more disruption and control than outright damage including weapons like the Shardnet and Impaler for a targeted snare maybe? I like the idea of suppression resistance, but being able to break suppression is ridiculously good. In tier 2 their Hekatrix should provide them with a haywire grenade for snaring and minor AV as well as boost their combat drugs ability, probably just some small buff to it generally.

Wracks: No, these should be tier 2 as I feel they don't fit in tier 1, they work very differently to regular DE and would be stronger if they were a straight up tier 2 purchase.
I would replace them with: Hellions: Jump squads are always useful and this would further differentiate the DE from the Eldar, however thet are probably too close to Wyches. Maybe Scourges in tier 2 instead.

About Power from Pain, I had been thinking it for a global ability to increase effectiveness in some manner for a relatively long duration (maybe a minute) for a squad, so that not every unit would need it. That is also about as far as I have thought the global bar-abilities.


About the venom, I think it should be more closely like a sentinel, and not a transport at all ^^ The raider is there to fill that role.
Also, as far as jump units go, scourges could fit for T2 and the venom could provide with a nice little turbo-boosting ability to give something to get over impassable terrain. Hellions are also not really something I think could be implemented that well (like bikes), especially since they are already, like you said, much like wyches.

Trueborn are not exactly close range specialists (and yeah I did think about the purgation squad, they would be a lot alike). It depends on their load-out. In TT commons builds for them can be three guys with two dark lances sniping away from a distance, or two splinter cannons in a venom to add even more firepower to it, or with 3-4 blasters to swoop in between vehicles. 10 trueborn all with shardcarbines should be incredibly potent for close range firepower of course. But I would often see them, along with scourges, as the heavy weapon/special weapon team. Making their weapons to work like snipers could work too though, although the splinter cannon should definitely be a quite rapid-firing one!

In regards to the shredder, I thought of it but it would function pretty much like an artillery weapon and I don't really know how to best implement it. I suppose it could be "simplified" into some weird version of a death spinner (from warp spiders) but I don't know.

A minute long global? Do you know how long engagements last in DoW II? A 1 minute long buff is going to kill any opposition outright it lasts far too long.

I will say it again, Dark Eldar are in no need of a Venom it is simply something that would give the army an unnecessary tankiness to it.

Trueborn are widely considered a close range squad what with there abundance of weapons such as close combat weapons, sharcarbines, special weapons like blasters and shredders, though the potential is there to make them something different for some variation.

It may just be me, but it feels like you haven't read the codex properly nor played DoW II very long, though I haven't played this game nearly as long as I should have. :/

Swiftsabre wrote:A minute long global? Do you know how long engagements last in DoW II? A 1 minute long buff is going to kill any opposition outright it lasts far too long.

I will say it again, Dark Eldar are in no need of a Venom it is simply something that would give the army an unnecessary tankiness to it.

Trueborn are widely considered a close range squad what with there abundance of weapons such as close combat weapons, sharcarbines, special weapons like blasters and shredders, though the potential is there to make them something different for some variation.

It may just be me, but it feels like you haven't read the codex properly nor played DoW II very long, though I haven't played this game nearly as long as I should have. :/

Again, I did not give any stats or even a cost. The 1 minute was just a suggestion. The venom I imagined was even more fragile than a sentinel, and I see no problem in it if properly implemented.

Trueborn are not a closecombat unit and are only close range with certain load-outs, that is an easy pick from the dark eldar codex, which I do own and have read. Making them a CC-unit is a DE-newbie mistake and will work out worse than storm guardians. They are not "widely considered" a close range squad in the sense that someone will keep them close to a charge distance. Their armour is the same as guardians, even. The most usual build for them that I have seen is either 2 splinter cannons in a venom, firing from a distance, or 4 blasters to pick off vehicles.

If you haven't read the trueborn entry in the codex, I can quote the last sentence here:
"Trueborn delight in dramatic displays of firepower, sending punishing fusillades into the enemy's armoured columns and leaving pillars of foul-smelling black smoke in their place."
They are pure range, quite often anti-tank (because they can work kind of like a ravager but more darklight shots) but also anti-infantry with splinter cannons.

I say again that a squad of 10 with shardcarbines can be incredibly potent, but they are damn fragile and not that likely to win a CC against a lot of units, especially if they get overwatched (which, against a squad of lets say 5 tactical marines, can result in the death of 1 or 2 trueborn before they even get there). Getting them into rapid-fire range of bolters is an extremely bad idea for them.

I don't know if you have ever fielded trueborn in TT or anything, but if you have successfully used plenty of shardcarbines or a CC-dracon, I am interested in what tactics you used and against what you played against

I think I have had enough of this thread. You clearly don't read what I write and all you come up with is broken shit.

Swiftsabre wrote:I think I have had enough of this thread. You clearly don't read what I write and all you come up with is broken shit.

I am sorry if I made you angry.
Remember that these are all just suggestions, and I am not even trying to make complete stats or cost, but to just flesh out abilities and units for the faction for this game.

Okay, so next up T2.
I am not that sure anymore about wracks, but I am going to go assume they are in T1 for now, because they would give some more support with the units, as well as the flamer.

T2, first unit is Scourges. 4 Models at start, a jump ability, and multiple weapon upgrades. They probably should be just regular infantry, since ghostplates are still pretty squishy. They all begin with shardcarbines for anti-infantry. The jump should be pretty fast, and its range moderate. For their models, starting with the autarch should work but they will need some animations for heavy weapons.
First upgrade is Haywire blasters, which gives them two of them. They snare vehicles a lot but don't do that much damage to them. Against a lone vehicle without any support, they could take it down by snaring it and keeping it from escaping. They are not very long range though.
Second upgrade is a dark lance, which makes them require to set up to fire it. Can use the jump and set up to start firing at a vehicle from an unsuspected angle, a little like the mekboy.
Third upgrade is heat lances, which gives them melta. More DPS at a slightly shorter range than haywire blasters, but no snare.
I suppose they could also get a squad leader (solarite), but I don't see too much utility from one. Maybe he could bring grenades.


Next up, Grotesques. Super Heavy Infantry, slowest and toughest Dark Eldar foot-unit they have, heavy melee, 3 models at start. For their models, I imagined some weird combination of Ogryns and Nobs for a fleshy, hulking giant.
For upgrades, they can get a liquifier gun for a flamer on one of them. It will retain most of its melee damage.
Then the Aberration, fourth model with a poisoned close combat weapon (more damage over time!). Gives them "Berserk Rampage", which increases their speed and damage for a while. After it wears off, they will become stunned (they have to regain control!). Good ability if you can make the fight short, but potentially bad for them if the enemy gets reinforcements, leaving them isolated.

Then the one that is pretty obvious and important for DE, the raider. Single Dark Lance for a little AV, very fast. I thought about it for a while, and I think it may be a nice idea to give it super heavy infantry armour as well, because bolters can indeed destroy those things. It would have a lot more health than a venom, though. Feel free to comment on it if you think it should have vehicle armour or should it be squishier?
Can transport infantry, which can help those grotesques quite a bit.
Works like the chimera or battlewagon in that if you garrison it, splinter rifles will fire out. I don't know too much how possible it would be to animate characters in the raider (it is an open topped vehicle, there wouldn't be anywhere to hide inside it), but I don't see it too important. However, something should be shown to fire those weapons at the sides!
For upgrades, can get a nightshield, which gives it a damage resistance for a short duration (useful if trying to escape or to dive in and release melee units on the enemy).
This one would have to be modeled from the scratch, I think. Can't think of anything that resembles it in the game.

Next up, the usual walker, Talos Pain Engine. Starts with a splinter cannon on its tail. Good at closecombat for start. Vehicle armour (finally!)
Has two upgrades it can take.
Chain flails, makes it dedicated into closecombat. Power melee or heavy melee? I could see chain flails to be used as nasty power melee, while it would remain as heavy melee without them.
Twin-linked heat lance that replaces the splinter cannon, makes it less useful in melee but better at hunting tanks.

Lastly, Mandrakes. They get very little love anywhere, but I think they would fit in great for a T2 infiltration-unit.
Start with 4 or maybe 5 models, infantry armour. Begin with the ability to infiltrate. It would drain very little energy, allowing them to remain in shadows for a very long time.
They also start with the baleblast-ability (or maybe have an upgrade for it?) which is a ranged attack (maybe like a grenade?) that sends a blast of freezing ice that stuns an enemy unit.
They would have regular melee, but deal decent DPS, and also have a quick health regeneration.
An upgrade would be the night fiend, adding a bigger mandrake on to the unit with power melee. Simple!


Out of this, I am most wondering should grotesques be pushed to T3 and wracks move in their place, but for now, I think there should be a good generator-basher and a garrison counter for DE in tier 1.
I am also wondering how little AV you would need against DE if the raider and venom would both be heavy or super heavy infantry in their armour-type
I was also thinking of the chronos parasite engine as a second walker for DE with artillery attacks. Would it be a good addition to T2 with the units now there, or could it possibly be a T3 vehicle?
Comments, suggestions, all welcome.

The first and foremost important thing to consider is the baseline for the units that should be accessible for the faction, and that is build around one very simple thing:

The Design // Theme of the faction.

So what are Dark Eldars? They're glorified hit & runners (If my memory serves me well) and they love taking prisoners and they thrive on torture and all those nasty bits and pieces. So generally you would want to approach and appeal to there inherit nature to the best of your capabilities.

So what would you have a base-line for your units?

1. Low hp - High damage values + Speed
2. Medium cost to give the risk vs reward to appeal to point 1.
3. Flexibility and manuverability through units, or abilities.

You get the idea. Just throwing units in for proposition is fine and all, but if it doesn't feel true to the nature of the Dark Eldar, then the feel you're playing as them gets lost. This is something I think Relic did pretty good, but the execution could have been better nontheless.

Same can be applied to the Grey Knights, but they're getting to the point where I'm happy with them.

Caeltos wrote:Same can be applied to the Grey Knights, but they're getting to the point where I'm happy with them.

Caeltos, but if you played the boardgame GK Strike Squads, they are melee crushers, even of monstrous creatures, and double the rate of fire of space marines at long distant with enhanced storm bolters that makes them more powerful than Terminators at ranged combat.

For the moment, the SS you made, and I use your words, "don't feel true to the nature of the Grey Knights". You have not few people here who are happy with the support sorcerers role you gave to them, and that's good, but thats not the nature of the unit.

I'm not saying they should be able to take on Carnifexes, of course, but they keep very little of what they are supposed to be.

Aertes wrote:

Caeltos wrote:Same can be applied to the Grey Knights, but they're getting to the point where I'm happy with them.

Caeltos, but if you played the boardgame GK Strike Squads, they are melee crushers, even of monstrous creatures, and double the rate of fire of space marines at long distant with enhanced storm bolters that makes them more powerful than Terminators at ranged combat.

For the moment, the SS you made, and I use your words, "don't feel true to the nature of the Grey Knights". You have not few people here who are happy with the support sorcerers role you gave to them, and that's good, but thats not the nature of the unit.

I'm not saying they should be able to take on Carnifexes, of course, but they keep very little of what they are supposed to be.

So would you really rather they were 1 man armies? Next up we shall hyave a Custodian faction. GG wp DoW, you are never coming back.

Swiftsabre wrote:So would you really rather they were 1 man armies?

As I said: of course not, but they keep almost nothing of their true nature. Being melee judo-knockbackers and support psykers is very far from their real role as backbone of a grey knight army.

I just wanted to answer Caeltos, not diverting this thread to where it's not intended. A Dark Eldar army would have a similar role to a (Craftworld) Eldar one, just as he said: fast hit and run guerrilla fighters. Instead of giving them more firepower, I'd give them slightly less but longer range, one because that's simply true in the original boardgame and two because that would give them a characteristic of their own against the Eldar.

Caeltos wrote:1. Low hp - High damage values + Speed
2. Medium cost to give the risk vs reward to appeal to point 1.
3. Flexibility and manuverability through units, or abilities.

I probably should have started with a little list like this ^^


To add in other characteristics for DE in general:
- Damage over Time as a regularly seen theme (Splinter weaponry as well as most CC of coven-units)
- Medium-sized squads (varying from 3 to 7), a bit larger than CWE but all dark eldar are still highly skilled and dangerous on their own

The first one is going to add in an interesting feature to fighting against them/with them.


The hit-&-run aspect is of course there, like with the other eldar, but I can easily see them a lot more different in gameplay for DoW2.

I don't really want to get involved in a discussion of Grey Knight Strike Squads

Aertes wrote:

Caeltos wrote:Same can be applied to the Grey Knights, but they're getting to the point where I'm happy with them.

Caeltos, but if you played the boardgame GK Strike Squads, they are melee crushers, even of monstrous creatures, and double the rate of fire of space marines at long distant with enhanced storm bolters that makes them more powerful than Terminators at ranged combat.

For the moment, the SS you made, and I use your words, "don't feel true to the nature of the Grey Knights". You have not few people here who are happy with the support sorcerers role you gave to them, and that's good, but thats not the nature of the unit.

I'm not saying they should be able to take on Carnifexes, of course, but they keep very little of what they are supposed to be.

I've lost a Dreadnought to an Assault Cannon in tabletop. What's your point? Balancing around tabletop?

I've literally said this one billion times now. I don't care that much for tabletop comparison into gameplay evaluation. Because there's so much flaws and stupidity to develop an actual RTS around it and make it work-able in the Dawn of War setting in it's gameplay.

Grey Knights are inherit Psykers - Which translates into abilities.
Grey Knights are specialized in dealing with Daemons - ^ Use abilities + anti-daemon tools to shut them down to a certain degree, but not to make them obselete in that certain matchup however.

It's about compromising and making it all work and try to do the best to ones capabilities to make them feel somewhat justified for what the faction is all about. If people are QQ'ing over lack of specialized AV option for their troops - well too bad, they're not getting one. The faction is based on generalist type of infrastracture.

You can't honestly expect Strike Squads to be both a dedicated ranged AND melee unit with top notch performance. How do you even balance that unit as a backbone unit to begin with? It falters already at the design decision. There needs to be some sort of counterplay option for the opposition, otherwise it's just toxic gameplay.

Besides, what would the point be in getting any real alternative units when you have a jack-of-all trades unit? I mean, it's just so absurd on a completely new level. Tabletop has point values. You also have all the stuff available on the get-go, and it's so RNG luck based that it can't be implemented realistically into an RTS.

Seriously, I fucking hate tabletop comparison and relevance when it's brought up into Dawn of War 2 that it's almost obnoxious and irritating to read. I'd rather read the Codex and get an general idea on what the purpose of things are. They make more sense then tabletop.

PS. Don't make up another quote of me saying something that I haven't said. That's also really irritating.

Aertes wrote:

Caeltos wrote:Same can be applied to the Grey Knights, but they're getting to the point where I'm happy with them.

Caeltos, but if you played the boardgame GK Strike Squads, they are melee crushers, even of monstrous creatures, and double the rate of fire of space marines at long distant with enhanced storm bolters that makes them more powerful than Terminators at ranged combat.

For the moment, the SS you made, and I use your words, "don't feel true to the nature of the Grey Knights". You have not few people here who are happy with the support sorcerers role you gave to them, and that's good, but thats not the nature of the unit.

I'm not saying they should be able to take on Carnifexes, of course, but they keep very little of what they are supposed to be.

Let me get this straight: You want a t1 backbone unit with more damage than TERMINATORS? Are you trolling or serious? Just because they're that strong in the fluff and/or tt DOESN'T mean that you can just translate that to DoW2 because fuck balance. Normal sm and Eldar aspect warriors should also be insanely strong by that logic. But guess what? I've had many games where the ground was littered with the bodies of aforementioned badasses. I'm sorry for going ot and all that but please; the SS is fine. As for the DE I'll say that while I'd focus on Grey Knights and eventually Tau first(saying Tau based on what was said on that ancient interview with Caeltos) but they'd cool to see nonetheless!;)

I'm saying what they ARE, not only in the background but on the original boardgame, and comparing them with what they have been made like in DoW II Elite. Nothing more, nothing less.

I mention the Terminators as an example of how much their capabilities have been lowered in Elite. I understand that, for the sake of balance, they couldn't be brought as they are, but they have been prostrated to a second line place.

Random Thought
In terms of TT, who's more of a glasscannon and mobile? Dark Eldar or Eldar?

Dark Eldar. Stand them in the same place twice and you lose the game.

Dark Eldar without doubts. Eldars have really well armoured units like Warp Spiders, Striking Scorpions or the very Spectral Guard. Even their jetbikes are more resilent than Dark Eldar ones.

So we talking hit-and-run tactics/playstyle as DE?

More like "hit and run or die". Dark Eldars just aren't supposed to be able to cope with extended engagements unless they deliver a lethal first strike to weaken the enemy. In exchange, their basic weapons can even kill monstrous creatures with a good saturation of splinter fire, but I don't know how viable it is to allow two dark eldar warrior squads to kill a carnifex with their basic weapons in DoW II...

A way to emphasise the hit and run tactics would be to give them additional damage when attacking from infiltration or rather something of simiral nature, since having all units being able to infiltrate is nonsense.

They could have a toggled ability which grants extra speed but inflicts damage to them overtime. There's lots that could be done to make their red resource unique in its gathering and function too eg.

You may need to harvest souls off of dead corpse, or you may have abilities that cause you to lose HP for a set period of time but grant additional red when you kill things in a certain area. Leader units and vehicles/elite squads could then get a red cost, which would be souls of course.

Could also go down the ork route and make it so they have to commit fully to an engagement or not bother at all. Drugs that cost resources would do that. Give them to most squads like eldar FoF, let it cost 65 req, 10 power but grant 40% damage buff and +1.5 speed on ranged squads and 25% damage resistance and +1 speed on melee squads.

Obviously the DE units should bleed like shit and raiders should be pretty fundamental. Probably at the cost of a chimera with more range, less dps, weak AV potential, +1 speed and poor durability (400hp?). How tough are Raiders in the TT?

They could have a toggled ability which grants extra speed but inflicts damage to them overtime

.
Yeah they should have abilities where you can sacrifice HP or models in exchange for more damage or speed or defense, depending on the unit and the buff it provides.

There's lots that could be done to make their red resource unique in its gathering and function too eg.

Dunno about this, souls could just be a way to call red, like for sm it's zeal for orks it's waagh etc, perhaps they could gain x2 or x3 times red when sacrificing their own units for abilities.