Seer Council, what's the point?

[Bahamut]

why people don't understand that the giant weakness of tyranid's melee build are the warriors?. For that matter stormboys got even more dps (30 power melee per model and 61 the stormnob) and they are t1

Anyway, that big wall of text just states unit stats, but what squad can beat terminators on its own? what squad has better support to deal with terminators?. Tyranid's melee is quite powerful yes, but banshees and seer council is all you need to brute force your way against terminators

[xerrol nanoha]

but banshees and seer council is all you need to brute force your way against terminators

I'm pretty sure I would rather have a warrior brood and a pair of genestealers, instead of a banshee squad and a seer council... if you think that's unfair, i'll take a horma squad with its leader in place of the warrior brood.

[Forestradio]

but banshees and seer council is all you need to brute force your way against terminators

I'm pretty sure I would rather have a warrior brood and a pair of genestealers, instead of a banshee squad and a seer council... if you think that's unfair, i'll take a horma squad with its leader in place of the warrior brood.

i don't even remember the last time i saw double genestealers in a game.

upkeep would keep the nids from T3 and carnifexes and other good monstrous creatures.

[Asmon]

None of you has seen a propely used seer council in action apparently.

Yeah, please share Ace.

But I hardly believe you will since the unit underperforms like hell. Can someone name another T3 melee unit that is countered by a suppression team?

[Nuclear Arbitor]

honestly, i don't think it getting countered by suppression is bad in general, nobz sort of are, but i do find the unit really, really boring in execution.

[Orkfaeller]

They are a bit dull, arent they?

Just a blob of Warlocks.

A full unit of psykers and all they do is hit things in melee.

There arent even any Farseer mixed in there like in the TT/Fluff.


Allways wished they acutally could do some kind or ritual like in the retribution campaign. ( the mission where you have to hunt down the warpspider who teleports the council around the map )

[David-CZ]

Allways wished they acutally could do some kind or ritual . . .

A kind of Eldar worship? Doesn't sound bad at all. But I wouldn't want it to be too similar to tics.

[Bahamut]

None of you has seen a propely used seer council in action apparently.

Yeah, please share Ace.

But I hardly believe you will since the unit underperforms like hell. Can someone name another T3 melee unit that is countered by a suppression team?

nobs?

[Orkfaeller]

Allways wished they acutally could do some kind or ritual . . .

A kind of Eldar worship? Doesn't sound bad at all. But I wouldn't want it to be too similar to tics.

Allways thought, well they are seers, what if they could "worship" to reveal some part of the map, or something. I dont know either, just thought it would be really nice if they could do ANYTHING outside meeleing.

[Cyris]

Hey all! The thing I like about forums is when people bring up a topic, and you can read the rest of the thread to learn new things about the topic. I'm honestly interested in ELITE players who like the Seer Council, or who have some insights into when and how to use it, to post thoughts and tips! In short: some of us are not interested in a Genestealer conversation.

How's this: I'd love to see posts from eldar players who like the Seer Council, and when and where it feels like the right spend relative to other T3 options. I've been slowly mianing different races in turn, and am now up to either eldar or IG. The times I've played Eldar, I've found incredible benefit from buying Prisms in T3, some pretty amazing plays from D-cannon (and some big fails) and crazy map control from avatar. The Seer Councile seems army role equivalent to shees, and doesn't preform it enough better than shees to justify the up front cost, and the reinforcements tend to make it the last unit I buy (often before losing!).

And I seriously, really would like to know of replays of skilled, relatively evenly matched players where Seer Council preforms well. I want to get good with Eldar next, and the FS reminds me so much of the apo that I think she's the one I want to start with.

[David-CZ]

In short: some of us are not interested in a Genestealer conversation.

You can't talk about balance and mention only one thing. There will always be other stuff surrounding it. As long as it's topic related it's fine.

Regarding a situation to use the Seers in, I suppose when your opponent has strong AV base from T2 you might want to go for them. Or when you need high mobility perhaps. They aren't the type of unit you automatically go for in T3 like Nobs or Predators usually are. More of situational. But that doesn't mean they aren't good at what they do. I would like to see some ability added to them as Orkfaeller suggested, though.

[SirSid]

Hear is y i like the seer councel :


1: They add a extra dimention of retreat kill layering to the eldar army ,

So lets say u are t3 eldar and have a bit extra rec and don't NEED the FP just yet , well getting a seer councel basicaly replaces your sheenz ( lets say sheenz are still preforming OK ) with a unit that is better at breaking lines then they are , u neeed this cuz t u have lines to break. Now your sheenz are free to do as they want , and what they want to do is flank. this can win u the game instantly and is a t3 suprise for your enemey.

2: they are a uber set up team counter

Wait what ? but sid they can't jump and can be supressed. Yes they can however they have fleet of foot and supression resistance , team them up with sheenz 1 on 1 side of set up team and 1 on the other and thare is no way for enemey to stop both units , dual suppretion is recuiered to even have a chance to stop the melley units , focous fire will not work for both at once .

3: Antarc buffs

The buffs this unit give are not to be underestimated with melley units, ususaly it not that big a deal cuz only sheenz get the main part of the buff however with seer councel on the field a high HP model squade like seer councel synergise with her VERY nice.

4: They can use gates

^^

5: They can level up

Level 4 seer councel are fucking insane , i would take them up against alot of things i would never let them close to at level 1 , like termianotrs or nobs. they also level very fast since they also have range fire. However it is rare to see this. level 2 however is a very nice buff to them and offten happens AFTER THE FIRST FIGHT WITH THEM.

6:Fire prism support

These units are the best unit in the eldar roster to protect a FP thare passive leap is VERY helpfull in defending against AV , espicaly fucking gay ass fag IG stromtropers ( witch is a totaly diffrent thread about how much i HATE this unit's mechanics ) however your FP is save wth them aroud from sneak attack. once they kock down a AV squade of any kind it's all but over for them.

7: warlock swift movment global

This global is dangrous all the time , however with seer councel on the field is is totaly insanley dangrous, now that u can get councel out with no red coast. the posibilty of late game retreat kills in very real. keep in mind they do kockback on entering combat. think about it like this. Fullyupgraded nobs attack eldar line , FP hits them kocking them back , seer councel run in and kock back again then micro away , FP shoots again. That's 3 times on thare ass at 1 point WITHOUT supression, making thare ability useless. start attacking nobswith seer councel now move FP to attack ork army , then as seers take some damage jump in antarc , now swift movment global . that's some dead nobs thare and as a bounous ork players are totaly caught off guard by this.

8:they can chase down retreating super units.

They can't fight a avatar or great unclean one. but they sure as hell can do alot of damage to it as it try's to run away.

9: they are underestimated

People are not scared of this unit becuse they rarley play vs it , this makes them dangrous in many matchups becuse players do not know how to deal with them ( for the most part )

10: they look cool and have cool sync kills


^^^

[Commissar Vocaloid]

For what it's worth, though I don't often see them in play, from what I have seen, they don't often perform all that great. But this might be a result of player choices rather than actual unit performance. I'm curious to go back into some replay videos and find a good example of where they do excel, because I'm sure it's out there.

And to SirSid's comment above, you mentioned a lot about retreat killing but I don't know if you can justify the cost of a unit that's as expensive as they are for simply retreat killing at that point in the game (T3). You won't be looking to engage them in minor skirmishes as much as you would probably like to use them more for breaking lines and disrupting formations. However, if you can easily counter them with a simple suppression team and/or other forms of control, coupled with their squishy nature, they're kind of expensive and hence why I could see a lot of people possibly being hesitant to use them when they've got other options (i.e Fire Prism or Avatar) - provided they sit around and fiddle with their resource pool, of course.

[Asmon]

Going back to what Sirsid said :

Seers' retreat killing is bad since they leap. Much less effective than shees at it (plus they're slower).

Seers do not benefit from their own aura, therefore they have no suppression resistance. And they have no ability like frenzy.

Fire prism support: so Eldar are meant to pay 650/100 to bodyguard a Fire prim? Rofl. Rangers do it a thousand times better.

Stop spreading nonsense and provide relevant replays. I have a few where seers perform poorly (Tex vs I come to my mind). None where they did great.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

they're kind of the t3 equivalent to t1 sluggas.

[SirSid]

Seer Council are a great unit when the situation calls for them.

They are more powerfull then 90 % of players give them credit for.

But as i can see evrey 1 has already made up thare mind that they suck so....


Fuck it buff the hell out of them, we all know eldar need another OP unit after all.

Same thing as evrey 1 crying about the lictor , nothings changed. The lictor is a great comander just like always but the over meta mind of the community has determend that he is OP. He's not , he's a total pain in the ass to deal with that's about it.


Tex or some other top tier player will put up a replay with seer Council face rapeing and idrid will cast it in a few mounths, then the threads will read SEER COUNCIL OP NURF ASAP.

[Torpid]

There's no reason to buff them at all for various reasons.

1) They shouldn't even exist for the WSE/WL, so unless somebody can prove why it is so inherently bad that said heroes can't get seers in the first place I'm just gonna reject the fact that seers need buffing in the first place as they are a mere novelty unit. Seers don't cost effectively counter SHI, but why should they, everything else the eldar t3 dominates at, surely they ought to have one downfall.

2) People like Asmondeus seem woefully ignorant, or willingly ignorant of the Eldar macro. When you hit t3 seers are, for obvious reasons, unlikely to be your first choice, unless you know for sure that your enemy is stuck in t2 and has a load of AV because you had/have a WL or two from t2. Otherwise the primary role that seers will have due to their t3 sub-par retreat killing/linebreaking is to counter-initiate. Eldar in t3 get many tools that you ought buy first, which allow you to economically efficiently have your seers perform this role. If you have a composition of 3/2x DA+ 3/2x set-up teams + Wraithlord, follow it up with a fire prism and a seer council, especially as the Farseer and you have one tough as nails build to break through. Seers can work with banshee squads too, they have that passive KB which is quite nice as CI and can lead to wipes if your enemy becomes too bold, not to mention this allows banshees to become a capping unit, which they are actually great at since they beat most units solo and are so quick. Seers are also super durable for an Eldar unit and in a heavy set-up team/prism/wraithlord build durability is going to be really nice to have. Also in a position where they are waiting to CI they are right amidst your army - so they're passively buffing all of them.

They have some clear hero synergies as well. The warp spider does nicely with his shimmer orbs/power blades/improved jump pack build. He can teleport mid-way ahead drop a shimmer orb and the seers can use it to get into melee unharmed and the spider can teleport in to suppression teams to support them in their charge - which of course is followed by a tonne of eldar ranged units such as warp spiders - of which the council are just tanking damage for. There's also group teleport so you can get behind enemy lines and REALLY CAUSE HAVOC, because we all know the disruptive potential of seers. Pincer attacking with wraithlords and seers can be quite an act. However people seem to prefer using their WSE purely as a capper and ultimately he does have the worst synergy with this unit.

The warlock has a far greater synergy. Channeling runes are moderately effective on them, especially due to their leap, it means if a melee unit engages them then they are stuck being knocked all over while the seers heal or they have to retreat. You also have warp throw on the warlock which makes them even better at counter initiation - because it's all about shifting up this macro position - nobody goes defense against Eldar because with rangers being so strong/prisms/energy shields/them having the best set-up teams/d-cannons/warp throw, you're just asking for a loss. Of course you also have the currently underused cloak of shadows which works nicely with them by allowing them to get into melee unharmed, and hopefully if there is some HoD rework that wargear will be more viable. Then he has the awesome swift movement/distortion field too.

Then there's the farseer. She's the best hero to force the enemy to come to you. you think they're gonna sit around defending when they have guided prisms/teams/WLs on them + psychic storms? No, I don't think so, so they come to fight you and what happens? You cast doom on their jump unit then decimate with your seers in seconds, add in spirit stones for some extra durability, it's all very good. You can initiate with the seer using fortune on the seers or if you've got the $ via time field, then spirit stones just gives them further durability. Not to mention the farseer gates can infiltrate+speed buff the seers which is clearly a huge benefit.

So all in all why do eldar get shitty seers, when orks get OP nobs? Well, it's because orks need a linebeaking unit. Orks don't have energy shields, nor do their deff dreads kill transports in ranged stance at ease, nor do their tanks out-range every other tank in the game, nor do they have such fantastic disruptive and defensive potential all round.

[Faultron]

role/purose of SC:

-he is a protector of fireprism, commanders and setup teams primarily like bansheez, for me seers are replacement for sheez in T3 if needed.In my opinion doesnt work well together with sheez since u cant support both units+ high pop cap, performance not good enough.
-only viable with warlock and farseer, but never a 1. buy unit usually.Needs the support from them if u want to have their full potential, so plan ahead with your wargears from T1 for this.
-he is not elite infantry like nobz and terminators, in my opinion eldar dont need melee units like that cos of their ranged options(also this is why i refuse striking scorpions for eldar, u cant give a tanky melee for eldar) as Torpid said it too.

i think their reinforce cost is too high
-the price change in beta 9 to 650 was a good move
-maybe they lack of having no upgrade/ability but not sure:)



PS: i hate this unit, most of the times i like to go Wraithlord instead:)

i still dont understand how his KB works vs units, i mean what kind of infantry he can and cannot KB?

[Bahamut]

So all in all why do eldar get shitty seers, when orks get OP nobs? Well, it's because orks need a linebeaking unit. Orks don't have energy shields, nor do their deff dreads kill transports in ranged stance at ease, nor do their tanks out-range every other tank in the game, nor do they have such fantastic disruptive and defensive potential all round.

but eldars need MOAR, MOAR I SAY!!

[Lulgrim]

I'm not convinced SC is exactly weak, although it might be a bit expensive. The squad also has a 60% reinforcement cost.

What I find lacking design-wise is the "MWB Warlock" playstyle -- it's a T3 "super infantry" squad in the same price bracket as e.g. Nobs yet I think it's the only Loldar unit that can't get an active ability (excluding FoF). Even the platforms and vehicles can get something. I feel the unit should be more involving to play.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Seer Council have received a cost decrease in beta 9, so now the reinforce is cheaper.

IMHo Seer Council don't need any buff ATM. They do almost as much damage as a LC Terminators squad with no red cost (except if you use the call-in with the Farseer) Leap into combat, FoF, can retreat, synergy with all Eldar commanders... And except heavy vehicles (Dreads, Land Raiders....) they can obliterate anything. They could have a tough match against SHI super units or LC Terminators, but with buffs they can deal with them.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

The only worthwhike buff would be a price droo to chaos terms pricing of 550 100 otherwise there kit is perfect the way it is.

[xerrol nanoha]

The only worthwhile buff would be a price drop to chaos terms pricing of 550 100 otherwise there kit is perfect the way it is.

This isn't the terminator thread yo.
I believe you are looking for this:
http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=429&start=60

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

U clearly dont understand what im saying so ill reiterate it. Drop the seer council price to the same as chaos terminators

[Kvek]

um, no ? they got a 100req decrease last patch, and that's a lot...

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Makes no sense tbh chaos lc terms cost about the same yet will shred seer council and a squad of shees at the same tine. The lrice outweighs there strengths and makes them a rare and situational purchase. A lower price will make them more appetizibg then a fp or waiting on an avatar

[Ace of Swords]

Yes let's ignore the fact that they are faster have fof, are better retreat killers,can retreat, do an absurd amount of knockbacks, have an energy regen aura etc...

Oh and by the way, lc termies cost 170 power.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Idk bow much u use them ace. They are as bad as stormboys in retreat killing. More oftwn then not they just leap at the target and dont attack. Concerning buffing stuff so do terminators

And obviously theyre faser theyre eldar. Thy get speed instead of survivability. They have regular infantry armor. They get completely destroyed.by any kind of ranged firepower so idk mang

To cost 650 100 and take thw same ranged damage that guardsman take is damb frivolous.if u ask me. Im paying super unit price to have them drop to ig flashlights like flys?

[Kvek]

Idk bow much u use them ace. They are as bad as stormboys in retreat killing. More oftwn then not they just leap at the target and dont attack. Concerning buffing stuff so do terminators

Um, wait till the enemy squad is right near your SC and then attack so they don't leap?...

Btw, you make short posts, but make a lot of them, what about you make one big next time ?:p

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

They will still leap at the target.and yeah id normally keep.it to one but thats how my train of thought went atm