The Intricacies of 1v1

[Forestradio]

Hello folks!

This is Radio the Forest (or forestradio) and I have recently begun branching out my playing options. Namely, this means playing more 1v1s (since I'm not as nooby as I used to be) and playing commanders other than the force commander. I've messed around some with the Lictor Alpha (whom you all know and hate) and hope to get better at using some other more subtle heroes (kommando nob, etc).

Some questions when it comes to playing other races than SM

How should I manage reinforcement? I am not accustomed to bleeding a lot, and just tend to leave my units on overwatch so I don't have to constantly reinforce them back at HQ.

How do I use my starting melee unit? Should it be capping? Starting melee units seem to be very high-risk, high reward units. Gaunts, tics, sluggas all have wipe potential right out of the gate, but also seem to go down very quickly and often are countered by enemy heroes. As you'll see in the replay I attached (hopefully successfully) I lose my hormagaunts and my opponent does not


Anyway, that's it. I'll be uploading more replays than just this one onto this thread, and I hope you will give me some feedback etc on playing 1v1. Thank you very much!

[Forestradio]

kommando knob and lictor alpha replay.

painboy seems really strong at the moment, even with the recent damage nerf he got.

Ork Specific Question:

What should my answer to a T2 walker be?

My options are:
tankbustas
beamy lootas (assuming T1 lootas)

Given that, it seems to be better to just go T3 and get a tank/nobz squad.

As always, feedback is appreciated

[Vapor]

The painboy is good but you can lose him in a flash if he gets hooked so be careful.

Ideally you would go t3 and get a rokkit launcha or tank etc to deal with a walker, but if you're not close to t3 by the time the walker appears then be prepared for a long painful t2. Spamming bustas or beamys (2x) is necessary to really threaten a vehicle. Or truck bustas if ur micro is good.

[PhatE]

Since I'm feeling incredibly lazy and won't revert back to an earlier beta I will say that it depends on your playstyle as to how you want to transition to the next tier.

If you're happy with opening standard as Orks(Kommando) and transitioning to the weirdboy then bustas are your choice. Nothing stops you from getting lootas but the build time to get lootas and then the beamy upgrade might be too late since you are reacting to what you see rather than trying to metagame your opponent. This means that they have become emergency AV.

However. If you want to plan ahead and do your T1 a little differently then incorporate some lootas into the build order. The beamy upgrade is fantastic and acts as a much faster way of putting pressure onto your opponents vehicles (doesn't even have to be walkers). You also have significantly more range than bustas and not an ability that renders them stationary trying to perform it all the way through.

Damage output is better as well but since they are a setup team it does make them stationary. Some people like to use trukk with bustas which is pretty good too since bustas are much lighter but with trukk do pretty well given the trukk doesn't get sniped.

Waiting for t3 to get the launcher is not a great plan as anything can happen in that time that you're waiting to get to t3. If your gen farm goes down or the walker is prancing around pretty much ruining anything ork then you've lost a lot just in that time that you spent banking on an upgrade in which you might not even have money for at that point neither may it necessarily work.

Experiment a little with combinations of units and abilities before resorting to "Do I get this or that to counter X"

All I can say is practice practice practice.

I realize that these two replays are after the hotfix which I didn't have before I made the initial post so I can see them.

[Codex]

What I would like to stress is that there is more than one legit way of playing DOW2. Some of that will come down to play style and overall strategy. As long as the reasoning behind any move in consistent then you can argue that it's a good move.

For example, you asked about how manage reinforcement. Well, if you feel like you need to/ want to maintain map presence and are going for a high-pressure style, leaving it on overwatch, getting multiple squads, and spending little time at base is consistent.

If you want to get by with minimal expenditure, or want to avoid higher upkeep and bringing out weak models to the field, then you would avoid reinforcing until they are mostly healed to minimise upkeep, all the while attempting to avoid too much loss (e.g. a gen farm) while healing at base. Of course these are not mutually exclusive but you can see some of the thinking there.

Next, about what you're meant to do with your initial squad. Again, that depends on what you want to do. If you would like/ wouldn't mind early engagements, it makes more sense to cap a smaller portion of the map, resulting in a compact formation which is combat ready at a moment's notice. On the other hand, if you would prefer to dodge fights then you would go skirmish mode and split up your forces to cover different parts of the map.

[Toilailee]

Regarding starting melee squads -->

Never charge in with them alone, and never lead the charge with them. Try to take as little damage as possible before reaching melee or you will just have to retreat as soon as you get into melee.
When charging all/most of your units into an engagement, lead with your range squads and keep the melee squad half a step behind the range stuff so they won't be targeted first and will reach melee with high hp.

When engaging in the early game, always pair them up with a range squad snare (awd, toxic sacs) to avoid getting kited.
Mainly use them for capping untill you get at least one upgrade/unit out that will allow them to reach melee somewhat reliably.


Hope this helps. Might wall more later if I get around to it.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

heroes can also open engagements if they're ranged or have enough health.

[Forestradio]

heroes can also open engagements if they're ranged or have enough health.

That's why I love infiltration heroes and want to expand my "run commander and hit them in the face" strategy with some sneaky shenanigans in the early game.

Regarding starting melee squads -->

Never charge in with them alone, and never lead the charge with them. Try to take as little damage as possible before reaching melee or you will just have to retreat as soon as you get into melee.
When charging all/most of your units into an engagement, lead with your range squads and keep the melee squad half a step behind the range stuff so they won't be targeted first and will reach melee with high hp.

When engaging in the early game, always pair them up with a range squad snare (awd, toxic sacs) to avoid getting kited.
Mainly use them for capping untill you get at least one upgrade/unit out that will allow them to reach melee somewhat reliably.


Hope this helps. Might wall more later if I get around to it.

thank you for this toil. I'm not really that used to having melee units already on the field during a game. I also try to save AWD and Crippling poison strictly for melee fights or kiting, but I will definitely work on using them in combination with another melee unit.

What I would like to stress is that there is more than one legit way of playing DOW2. Some of that will come down to play style and overall strategy. As long as the reasoning behind any move in consistent then you can argue that it's a good move.

For example, you asked about how manage reinforcement. Well, if you feel like you need to/ want to maintain map presence and are going for a high-pressure style, leaving it on overwatch, getting multiple squads, and spending little time at base is consistent.

If you want to get by with minimal expenditure, or want to avoid higher upkeep and bringing out weak models to the field, then you would avoid reinforcing until they are mostly healed to minimise upkeep, all the while attempting to avoid too much loss (e.g. a gen farm) while healing at base. Of course these are not mutually exclusive but you can see some of the thinking there.

Next, about what you're meant to do with your initial squad. Again, that depends on what you want to do. If you would like/ wouldn't mind early engagements, it makes more sense to cap a smaller portion of the map, resulting in a compact formation which is combat ready at a moment's notice. On the other hand, if you would prefer to dodge fights then you would go skirmish mode and split up your forces to cover different parts of the map.

I am a big fan of overwhelming pressure and "stall" tactics to wind down the VPs and give me opportunities to bash power. Endless Swarm is therefore my go-to purchase in T2 for nids, since it helps sustain the bleed I will suffer.

Since I'm feeling incredibly lazy and won't revert back to an earlier beta I will say that it depends on your playstyle as to how you want to transition to the next tier.

If you're happy with opening standard as Orks(Kommando) and transitioning to the weirdboy then bustas are your choice. Nothing stops you from getting lootas but the build time to get lootas and then the beamy upgrade might be too late since you are reacting to what you see rather than trying to metagame your opponent. This means that they have become emergency AV.

However. If you want to plan ahead and do your T1 a little differently then incorporate some lootas into the build order. The beamy upgrade is fantastic and acts as a much faster way of putting pressure onto your opponents vehicles (doesn't even have to be walkers). You also have significantly more range than bustas and not an ability that renders them stationary trying to perform it all the way through.

Damage output is better as well but since they are a setup team it does make them stationary. Some people like to use trukk with bustas which is pretty good too since bustas are much lighter but with trukk do pretty well given the trukk doesn't get sniped.

Waiting for t3 to get the launcher is not a great plan as anything can happen in that time that you're waiting to get to t3. If your gen farm goes down or the walker is prancing around pretty much ruining anything ork then you've lost a lot just in that time that you spent banking on an upgrade in which you might not even have money for at that point neither may it necessarily work.

Experiment a little with combinations of units and abilities before resorting to "Do I get this or that to counter X"

All I can say is practice practice practice.

I realize that these two replays are after the hotfix which I didn't have before I made the initial post so I can see them.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that the first replay is beta 8 and the next two are beta 9 after the hotfix.

K Nob doesn't get AV himself in T2, but infiltrated tankbustas could do some nasty things to transports. I'll have to mess around with it.

Lootas have good wipe potential (ambushing when squishy unit is right in front of them) that I also have to mess around with.


I will be uploading some more replays on Friday. Thank you for all of your advice people

[Dark Riku]

How should I manage reinforcement? I am not accustomed to bleeding a lot, and just tend to leave my units on overwatch so I don't have to constantly reinforce them back at HQ.

Overwatching is usually a bad idea with any race unless you are in the field.
You want to have your squads combat ready just as they are healed up or you need them out of base again just to save a little extra on that upkeep.

What should my answer to a T2 walker be?

I find bustas always the way to go. They are so potent. Especially considering the barrage ability. After the vehicle is destroyed they are great ninja-bashers or a great engagement starter with their barrage. You can awlays compliment them with the hero AV (if possible) or a trukk. Bustas love them trukks :p

[Forestradio]

Attached is a chaos lord replay, will probably upload more today.

EDIT: It says the "board attachment quote has been reached."
Anyway around this?

Some random general impressions

1. Setup teams should not be used vs IG. Not even double setup teams

2. Jump troops should not be used vs the inquisitor, nor should a bloodcrusher

3. Blood crusher should not be used vs GK: get bloodletters instead

4. Sluggas are the worst T1 melee unit in terms of overall usefulness. Heretics are
better at utility, and get a squad leader. Gaunts can retreat kill. Shees are shees.

5. Apo purification vials are really really good at area denial and anti-melee.

6. MoK CSM are good at killing sentinels. Like really good, especially if stomp is on cooldown.


I tried the K nob and just couldn't make him work. I literally felt like banging my head against the wall in the early game, just didn't have the dps really to do anything before big shootas. Of course, it probably had something to do with my sluggas running into purification vials all the time.

So I'm going to be messing around with the Plague Champion (glory to Nurgle) and the Chaos Lord (milk for the khorne flakes).

Would greatly appreciate any advice from our resident chaos lord experts (Nurland, Raffa, etc).

[Dark Riku]

EDIT: It says the "board attachment quote has been reached."
Anyway around this?

Go to User Control Panel then Manage Attachments
there you can delete some old uploads to make space.

[Codex]

Attached is a chaos lord replay, will probably upload more today.

EDIT: It says the "board attachment quote has been reached."
Anyway around this?

Some random general impressions

1. Setup teams should not be used vs IG. Not even double setup teams

2. Jump troops should not be used vs the inquisitor, nor should a bloodcrusher

3. Blood crusher should not be used vs GK: get bloodletters instead

4. Sluggas are the worst T1 melee unit in terms of overall usefulness. Heretics are
better at utility, and get a squad leader. Gaunts can retreat kill. Shees are shees.

5. Apo purification vials are really really good at area denial and anti-melee.

6. MoK CSM are good at killing sentinels. Like really good, especially if stomp is on cooldown.


I tried the K nob and just couldn't make him work. I literally felt like banging my head against the wall in the early game, just didn't have the dps really to do anything before big shootas. Of course, it probably had something to do with my sluggas running into purification vials all the time.

So I'm going to be messing around with the Plague Champion (glory to Nurgle) and the Chaos Lord (milk for the khorne flakes).

Would greatly appreciate any advice from our resident chaos lord experts (Nurland, Raffa, etc).

Might as well respond point by point:

1. My impression is the exact opposite. Case in point: as SM, combine a setup team and sniper to force the IG to come to you if he goes for a sentinel build as SM and IG can struggle a lot. In the end, IG are optimised for defence, not assault. As Chaos, combine a havoc with a noise marine for unmitigated rape.

2. Jump troops are generally risky against IG, as they drop little experience, Catachans fare well against them, and GM drop little xp. They are generally cost-inefficient but have their uses.

3. Bloodcrusher still has its uses, but needs worship to maximise it. Speed worship and infiltration worship are both fantastic and make crusher easily justifiable for cost in several situations.

4. Well, yes. But sluggas in T2 are fantastic, and should be treated with care as they will reach that scary state if not wiped. Use them primarily for capping in T1 and only commit them to a fight if they're really needed.

5. Vials are excellent, but are also situational. Rites are far more well rounded. Typically pick up vials if there's multiple squishy melee squads on the field.

6. MOKCSM are good against almost everything (except melee elites and upgraded shees), they scale slightly worse than TCSM though due to their tendency to get blown up quickly in the late game, simply due to the fact they are melee. In the late game best used for flanking or capping for this reason.

In general, orks are extremely weak in the very early game and shine most at 2 phases: in T1.5 and getting to T3 first.

[Bahamut]

sluggas >>>> hormagaunts.

People like to skip the fact that painboy can permanently upgrade slugga's speed to 7

[Codex]

Is it actually 7 though? Or is it actually 6 (5+1)?

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=elite/painboy

"Fasta Cybork Implants

Make some boyz fasta with dese cybork implants! Increases speed by 1 permanently."

And I really shouldn't have to do this, but I might as well.

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/Slugga_Boyz

Speed 5.

Come on guys, these things are really easy to check before posting. I've never used the speed implants once, but I know that +2 speed on implant would be OP as fuck and would never have been implemented. If you aren't sure about the value of something just saying that sluggas can be augmented by painboy is a perfectly legitimate point; it just seems like you're exaggerating when you say they have speed 7 (like holy cow 7 is ridonkulous fast)

[Forestradio]

sluggas >>>> hormagaunts.

People like to skip the fact that painboy can permanently upgrade slugga's speed to 7

not in T1 they aren't. And Painboy's augmentation is in T2.

@Codex

I was using a double havoc play vs IG, and a single spotter squad completely shut it down, for half the power investment. One shell to knock the first havoc out of cover, the other shell to stop the second havoc from firing at all.

Vindicare assassin+krak grenade seems to nullify any bloodcrusher play, and vindicare w/ a krak nade is less power too

@Riku

I'll try that, thanks for the tip.

[Codex]

Don't use double havocs. Use havoc+ noise marine. What are they going to do? Make sure you move around the havoc as much as possible. The onus is on the IG to force off both squads because either one by itself can shut them down if left unchecked.

If he drops a shell on the havoc, run your noise marines up and start silencing stuff. That will pressure him to make a choice: focus on the havocs which are resetting up at the back or focus on the NM. He should focus on the NM, or else his ranged blob is completely nullified. If need be, kite the NM back a bit, or just keep silencing. Then the smoke shell comes on the havoc again. At this point, throw your NM forward again, and reposition the havoc yet again. He's in big trouble if he can't stop this maneuvre.

[Asmon]

Codex, Slugga Nobz grants +1 speed to the squad (unless this has been removed but I doubt it) hence 7 speed Sluggaboyz with Cybork Implants.

[Dark Riku]

Codex, Slugga Nobz grants +1 speed to the squad (unless this has been removed but I doubt it) hence 7 speed Sluggaboyz with Cybork Implants.

It has been "shifted". Swamp 'Em now instead gives you +1 speed temporarily.

[Forestradio]

Don't use double havocs. Use havoc+ noise marine. What are they going to do? Make sure you move around the havoc as much as possible. The onus is on the IG to force off both squads because either one by itself can shut them down if left unchecked.

If he drops a shell on the havoc, run your noise marines up and start silencing stuff. That will pressure him to make a choice: focus on the havocs which are resetting up at the back or focus on the NM. He should focus on the NM, or else his ranged blob is completely nullified. If need be, kite the NM back a bit, or just keep silencing. Then the smoke shell comes on the havoc again. At this point, throw your NM forward again, and reposition the havoc yet again. He's in big trouble if he can't stop this maneuvre.

I did this in a 3v3 and it worked pretty darn well. Thanks for the advice Codex. OF course, 1v1 is a completely different animal

I think most of it boils down to me refining my khorne worship play and how I use that with my other heretic squad and chaos lord.

[PhatE]

sluggas >>>> hormagaunts.

People like to skip the fact that painboy can permanently upgrade slugga's speed to 7

While your statement would imply that sluggaz always win that fight without much trouble there's way more to that fight than that incredibly simplistic analysis. There are plenty of times where it's the complete opposite given the vast array of situations this game gives you.

While you technically can buff their speed, hardly anyone would ever actually give the upgrade to sluggaz anyway. Since you want to save the upgrade for whatever you are planning for later. Usually you wait for nobz before you even consider handing out any of the 3 upgrades.

There used to be a bug (still is?) where if you lost a painboy and repurchased you could actually apply any of the upgrades more than once to the same squad. This means that you could actually get 8k+ HP nobz within a 25 minute game. Although it's expensive and really not practical it was still there.

[Bahamut]

Codex, Slugga Nobz grants +1 speed to the squad (unless this has been removed but I doubt it) hence 7 speed Sluggaboyz with Cybork Implants.

As riku said plus warpath and waaagh! will buff their speed too. Also sluggas don't have the stupid leap animation hormas got, so they are acutally better retreat killers than hormas. I can actually say if hormas didn't have that leap, they'd be in a serious need of a nerf

Phate, the only time sluggas lose to hormas is when hormas have endless swarm and are buffed by melee synapse(t2), in which case is as simple as go for the warriors, which you should always do anyway since warriors are the Achilles's talon of tyranids. There's also to note that hormas have 55 melee skill (not 60 as wiki says) so even sluggas with their low melee skill can easily pop their specials on them when not under melee synapse(t2)

So yeah, sluggas >>>> hormas ALWAYS even in t1 with just burnas

Attention: I'm not QQing about homras being weak, i'm just stating facts

[Kvek]

Yes, but hormas are not an ANTI MELEE unit, they are an anti ranged one, 6,5 speed and a shitload of damage, while termas do the anti melee job

[Torpid]

Horms are speed 6.5 when sluggas are 5, horms do 160 damage, whereas sluggas do 150, horms have a passive leap into combat with AG which allows them, alongside their 6.5 speed to chase rather effectively, they scale fantastically too - they hardly bleed at all in t2 and are a very potent unit for their very low upkeep cost (especially in t2, where they don't pay pop for leaders) - 8 pop vs 12 pop in t1.

You guys need to seriously stop 'hard comparing' units, which means simply looking at stats or seeing who wins in a fight. Units have different roles based on the race they are in and some even synergise with certain heroes much more, ASM with the apo, raveners with the HT, wraithlord with the FS. Clearly hormagaunts weren't meant to, at least in t1, be charging straight at melee units. They lack the melee skill for it, yet what they don't lack is speed and damage and even retreat killing potential so use them against set-up teams/ranged units then in t2 when they get synapse and knokcback support use them vs melee. Or in t1 use them as jump squad counter-initiation alongside your hero.

[FiSH]

Also sluggas don't have the stupid leap animation hormas got, so they are acutally better retreat killers than hormas. I can actually say if hormas didn't have that leap, they'd be in a serious need of a nerf

Phate, the only time sluggas lose to hormas is when hormas have endless swarm and are buffed by melee synapse(t2),

I'd like to point out that these things are not true. First of all, hormagaunts are VERY good at retreat killing because of their fast speed AND leap. unlike some of the other leaps in the game, theirs do damage, so the more leap, the better.

unupgraded hormagaunts can also give unupgraded banshees a tough fight should banshees get unlucky enough to not get enough specials. chances are, yes, banshees will perform special, but i've had unlucky instances where the fight was so close that both the tyranid player and i withdrew our squads at the same time. I'll also remind you that the fight between unupgraded sluggas with waagh and unupgraded banshees is a VERY close one, and if banshees get unlucky with specials here, they may lose. I'm emphasize this: YOU CANNOT COUNT on specials, no matter the melee skill difference (banshee 70, horma 55). you can hope for them, but this may severely backfire.
Putting these facts together, you'll see that making sluggas fight hormagaunts is unwise, and at best may get you a costly victory. if there is basic synapse, (not even endless swarm or melee synapse) the fight between sluggas and hormas should be avoided.

[Bahamut]

My post was aimed at a previous post stating sluggas are the worst squad in t1

Anyway, stop that nonsense with sluggas are a melee counter and bla bla bla. Sluggas with burnas in range stance will beat a termagaunt squad and a t1 GM squad. For that matter sluggas are counter initiation, anti garrison, anti blob, gen bashers, retreat killers, etc, etc, etc

I'd like to point out that these things are not true. First of all, hormagaunts are VERY good at retreat killing because of their fast speed AND leap. unlike some of the other leaps in the game, theirs do damage, so the more leap, the better.

Why are interceptors better retreat killers than ASM?
Why are sluggas better retreat killers than stormboyz?
Why are banshees better retreat killers than seer council?

[Kvek]

My post was aimed at a previous post stating sluggas are the worst squad in t1

Anyway, stop that nonsense with sluggas are a melee counter and bla bla bla. Sluggas with burnas in range stance will beat a termagaunt squad and a t1 GM squad. For that matter sluggas are counter initiation, anti garrison, anti blob, gen bashers, retreat killers, etc, etc, etc

I'd like to point out that these things are not true. First of all, hormagaunts are VERY good at retreat killing because of their fast speed AND leap. unlike some of the other leaps in the game, theirs do damage, so the more leap, the better.

Why are interceptors better retreat killers than ASM?
Why are sluggas better retreat killers than stormboyz?
Why are banshees better retreat killers than seer council?

Upgraded squad vs a non-upgraded squad....
Upgraded termas>upgraded sluggas.

They are better retreat killers, because they don't have a leap but if ASMs had a leap that did damage they would have been better at retreat killing

[FiSH]

Why are interceptors better retreat killers than ASM?
Why are sluggas better retreat killers than stormboyz?
Why are banshees better retreat killers than seer council?

1. because ASM's leap doesn't do damage, while interceptors can teleport again and again on the retreating unit.
2. because stormboy's leap doesn't do damage, and because sluggas have options to go faster.
3. i do not know if this statement is true. it probably is because banshees with exarch gets +0.5 speed.

i'll say this again. horma's leap does damage.

[Faultron]

bansheez is better then SC cos, +0,5 speed, but more important they dont leap to the target.

[Kvek]

Why are interceptors better retreat killers than ASM?
Why are sluggas better retreat killers than stormboyz?
Why are banshees better retreat killers than seer council?

1. because ASM's leap doesn't do damage, while interceptors can teleport again and again on the retreating unit.
2. because stormboy's leap doesn't do damage, and because sluggas have options to go faster.
3. i do not know if this statement is true. it probably is because banshees with exarch gets +0.5 speed.

i'll say this again. horma's leap does damage.

You are right, but his point was that things with leap have a worse retreat kill potential

[Faultron]

he said
,i do not know if this statement is true. it probably is because banshees with exarch gets +0.5 speed.'