Nurgle Worship

[Raffa]

Compared to CL and Sorc worships (+2 speed and infiltration respectively), the 0.35 hp regeneration of the PC is very underwhelming. This would be fine if playing the PC gave you other, noticeable advantages over the other two heroes, but it doesn't. I've been playing PC recently and current thoughts are:

1. Worship + Daemons
This is the big issue - speed and infiltration are both amazing boosts for bloodletters on top of the standard regen (1.2 or something?). Nurgle worship giving nothing but the regen is just bad design IMO and disadvantages using Daemons with the PC.

Now this is counterbalanced by the fact that the PC has fantastic counter-initiation wargear which, on top of his worship, means he makes some very tough blobs. Particularly havoc + NM work well as he will eat Jump units alive with the right wargear. The best counters to his blobs are usually suppression and artillery. Bloodletters are the obvious counter and really bring the pain on setup teams.

Although Bloodletters do work really well in the context of a whole Nurgle army, I still don't think this means they just shouldn't get a worship 'perk' like the other Chaos heroes, especially since PC is the weakest of the 3 in 1v1 anyway.

Nurgle worship scalability
The regen is basically useless once T3 hits and loses a lot of usefulness in t2 unless you want to dedicate a two or three man heretic squad to babysitting your units and running from every fight (I like this a lot, since your upkeep is tiny :p).

I remember a while back Caeltos said that he reduced the worship originally from 0.5 to 0.35 because 2x EW csm were trololol in T1. However, we have to remember that 0.5 made it scalable into mid and occasionally late game.

Conclusions
Increase Nurgle worship regen on Daemons from 1.2 to 1.5
Make Nurgle worship scale with tiers 1/2/3 using 0.35/0.55/0.75

While you're at it increase Plague Sword cost to 150/30. Best T1 weapon because of PC design (namely he doesn't usually have to run to his target, Melee units come to him). And it has an awesome special. Excellent long-term purchase - the best along with Feeder Tendrils and Apo vampiresword.

[Asmon]

But in T2 come the shrines and PC's are obviously the best of them. I think Nurgle's support to infantry units is fine. It is towards vehicle support that we should direct our buffs.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Demons need to be addresed as well. The other two worships give demons the same regen, and also have a secondary benefit such ad speed and dps as well as infiltration

[Dark Riku]

Conclusions
Increase Nurgle worship regen on Daemons from 1.2 to 1.5
Make Nurgle worship scale with tiers 1/2/3 using 0.35/0.55/0.75

I wouldn't go further than 5HP's/sec regen in scaling if a change would be made. Like Asmon said, the new Nurgle shrine should be taken into consideration when looking at their scaling. Can't just compare their retail worship without looking at the better shrines. Instead of buffing the heal on daemons I rather agree with Asmon in that we should buff the effect on vehicles. It could heal up vehicles by a small amount, making sure it doesn't stack with the Nurgle pred regen. I would start by seeing how things work out with ~2,5HP's/sec.

Demons need to be addresed as well. The other two worships give demons the same regen, and also have a secondary benefit such ad speed and dps as well as infiltration

Where does the extra DPS come from...?

[Torpid]

Compared to CL and Sorc worships (+2 speed and infiltration respectively), the 0.35 hp regeneration of the PC is very underwhelming. This would be fine if playing the PC gave you other, noticeable advantages over the other two heroes, but it doesn't. I've been playing PC recently and current thoughts are:

1. Worship + Daemons
This is the big issue - speed and infiltration are both amazing boosts for bloodletters on top of the standard regen (1.2 or something?). Nurgle worship giving nothing but the regen is just bad design IMO and disadvantages using Daemons with the PC.

Now this is counterbalanced by the fact that the PC has fantastic counter-initiation wargear which, on top of his worship, means he makes some very tough blobs. Particularly havoc + NM work well as he will eat Jump units alive with the right wargear. The best counters to his blobs are usually suppression and artillery. Bloodletters are the obvious counter and really bring the pain on setup teams.

Although Bloodletters do work really well in the context of a whole Nurgle army, I still don't think this means they just shouldn't get a worship 'perk' like the other Chaos heroes, especially since PC is the weakest of the 3 in 1v1 anyway.

Nurgle worship scalability
The regen is basically useless once T3 hits and loses a lot of usefulness in t2 unless you want to dedicate a two or three man heretic squad to babysitting your units and running from every fight (I like this a lot, since your upkeep is tiny :p).

I remember a while back Caeltos said that he reduced the worship originally from 0.5 to 0.35 because 2x EW csm were trololol in T1. However, we have to remember that 0.5 made it scalable into mid and occasionally late game.

Conclusions
Increase Nurgle worship regen on Daemons from 1.2 to 1.5
Make Nurgle worship scale with tiers 1/2/3 using 0.35/0.55/0.75

While you're at it increase Plague Sword cost to 150/30. Best T1 weapon because of PC design (namely he doesn't usually have to run to his target, Melee units come to him). And it has an awesome special. Excellent long-term purchase - the best along with Feeder Tendrils and Apo vampiresword.

Firstly I'de like to point out that the only reason to go PC over CL is because PC can repair, build turrets, get bile spewer and the plague sword. Other than that the CL can do a better job in every way than the PC can with his wargears on top of having way better t1 pressure, being a soft suppression counters and having better worship (globals are about equal overall, pc only get ToN).

With that said, yes, the PC needs buffs. Either that or the CL needs mad nerfs, but relic gave him such stupid versatility, I blame them.

I'm not sure the PC is weaker than the CS in 1v1, but still, I agree, the worship needs more scaling. Something like 3.5/4.5/5.5 in the various tiers would be better I think, your suggestions are definitely too drastic.

I think the daemon worship is fine because daemons do work really with the PC I find, but dreadnoughts not so much, at least compared to the other heroes. I agree with riku actually, some regen would be nice for vehicles however vehicles do have a lot less hp than infantry and only one model of course, so it can't be very high, what is the nurgle pred regen? It should probably be around 3/4 of that.

[Sub_Zero]

Tzeentch marines under better healing from heretics that way behind them? No, thanks. Shrines do the job and that should be it for any infantry.

Vehicles should be healed by worship, I want it too.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Unless its been changed since retail khorne worship gave a 10% damage increase

[Kvek]

Khorne shrine gives 10% more damage
(tzeentch one gives 10% resistance)

[Nurland]

PC worship has extremely crappy scaling atm. 3,5/4,5/5,5 might be a reasonable buff so that it would be of some actual use in late game engagements (still only 0,5hp/s better than in Retail). Also as pointed out, some small extra benefits to daemons and/or vehicles would be justifiable.

Khorne worship only boosts speed. Didn't boost damage even in Retail afaik.

[Ace of Swords]

Would be nice to see some sort of defensive buff to daemons and vehicles under worship.
Maybe damage reduction or maybe some sort of plague-like effect that activates when the vehicle/daemon under worship is under attack.

[Dark Riku]

Unless its been changed since retail khorne worship gave a 10% damage increase

It hasn't been changed and it didn't do that in retail either.

[Broodwich]

Would be nice to see some sort of defensive buff to daemons and vehicles under worship.
Maybe damage reduction or maybe some sort of plague-like effect that activates when the vehicle/daemon under worship is under attack.

Hmm I like this approach best, slowing units that are either attacked by units under worship or (melee)attack units under worship sounds the most interesting. I hate it when people just ask for straight up stat buffs.

[Sub_Zero]

The thing about nurgle worship is that you have to kill/force off heretics first to deal with the rest of the army. Because you are not going to win against them while they get constant healing. In T1 you can hold your positions eternally especially if you have "Breathe of Nurgle". One game I managed to keep Eldar player away from my positions with my havocs, he had 2x snipers but constant healing + "Breathe of Nurlge" helped me to keep them on the field for a really long time.

When you face khorne worship or tzeentch worship you are not in need to take out heretics. Because these worships don't provide constant buffs. Tzeentch worship kind of does but you deal with it if you have a detector.

And if we are going to buff this healing effect in T2/T3 then things like tzeentch marines/khorne havocs will be immortal in any firefight and any jump unit will be owned by OP sword/plague fist. Only artillery will help and supression teams.

Khorne worship/Tzeentch worship don't become better with tiers so should not Nurgle worship. Gotta give it some synergy with vehicles, demons though.

[Torpid]

The thing about nurgle worship is that you have to kill/force off heretics first to deal with the rest of the army. Because you are not going to win against them while they get constant healing. In T1 you can hold your positions eternally especially if you have "Breathe of Nurgle". One game I managed to keep Eldar player away from my positions with my havocs, he had 2x snipers but constant healing + "Breathe of Nurlge" helped me to keep them on the field for a really long time.

When you face khorne worship or tzeentch worship you are not in need to take out heretics. Because these worships don't provide constant buffs. Tzeentch worship kind of does but you deal with it if you have a detector.

And if we are going to buff this healing effect in T2/T3 then things like tzeentch marines/khorne havocs will be immortal in any firefight and any jump unit will be owned by OP sword/plague fist. Only artillery will help and supression teams.

Khorne worship/Tzeentch worship don't become better with tiers so should not Nurgle worship. Gotta give it some synergy with vehicles, demons though.

Firstly let me remind you nurgle worship at regen 5 was not such a big issue in retail in t2 or t3, the reason it got changed in elite was because it was trolololol in t1. Retail TCSM are not immortal under nurlge worship and that's slightly stronger than the changes I proposed anyway.

Furthermore tzeentch worship causes a 20% defence bonus against all forms of damage even when you have a detector. That affects vehicles too I believe.

Also I think you misunderstand the way in which we often use scale. Scaling into higher tiers doesn't imply the effect gets stronger as you progress tiers, rather the effect has more applications and potential uses. Khorne worship aids with chasing down vehicles and initiating, it also helps melee wipe squads easier (especially letters) and it also helps with saving your vehicles. Tzeentch worship serves as a great way of getting LoS without taking damage (something chaos otherwise struggle at due to the lack of snipers/infiltrators), it also aids with initiation (take 20% less damage overall and are only visible at a closer range so you take less ranged damage getting into melee), it helps protect your vehicles since they take less damage and will eventually infiltrate (note how chasing AV is often in front of detectors so you will eventually infiltrate your vehicle) and these are benefits that occur when there is a detector around.

All nurgle worship does is heal allies which has two applications, make them last longer in combat, or heal them outside of combat, the problem is that the heal isn't even that strong so it's a waste of your heretics time when they could be doing so much more.

[Sub_Zero]

I am questioning your information about Tzeentch worship. All it does is described by standart infiltration mechanic. And according to it partially revealed units take 20% less ranged damage. And when you have a detector in you army you can fully reveal them and they will take full damage.

And I consider shrines of Nurgle as the best shrines. They provide you good healing and very important thing - reinforcing. They supress targets also. If we buff standart worship in T2/T3 then shrines will have to become worse. You can have 1 squad for constant healing and other one for burst healing. And if it is OK now then it will be a little bit too strong with improved T2/T3 worship.

[Nurland]

That scenario would require two heretic squads and a shrine. So it is ~10-21 pop + upkeep (depenging on reinforcements) + the possible upgrades on tics not contributing to the fight in any other way. Considering this, I have no issues with it being hard to break without artillery. I don't think buffing Nurgay worship in T2/T3 will make PC rofl OP.


And regarding infiltration, I think Sub Zero is right. Partially revealed units take 20% less ranged damage (for example when units are shooting) but detectors reveal units completely so infiltration will bring no bonuses as long as they are within the detection radius.

[Asmon]

And regarding infiltration, I think Sub Zero is right. Partially revealed units take 20% less ranged damage (for example when units are shooting) but detectors reveal units completely so infiltration will bring no bonuses as long as they are within the detection radius.

Indeed.

[Torpid]

Yes, I think what I said about infiltration is wrong; they don't retain the 20% damage resistance when detected. Nonetheless tzeentch/khorne worship still scale into the tiers a lot better. I think at the very least nurgle worship should go 3.5/4.5/5.5 throughout the tiers, even with the shrines it's so subpar atm.

[Bahamut]

is 20% damage reduction. Not 20% ranged damage reduction. That means it does work in melee too, easy to test with a t3 lictor and some high dmg, slow attacking unit with no splash.. like BS/VC fex or ranged dreads, preferably fexes because of slower animation

This is the tooltip " Attacking or using abilities will partially reveal the squad. Partially revealed units receive -20% damage. Can be fully revealed by detector units, capturing points or getting too close to enemy units."

[Vapor]

Can be fully revealed by detector units, capturing points or getting too close to enemy units."

Right, so the damage reduction doesn't apply in melee because you have to touch the enemy unit to melee.

[Bahamut]

should be easy to test.. one of this days i'll do it

[Nurland]

Every unit has at least a detection radius. Usually it is 5 iirc. So the damage reduction shouldn't work in melee.

[FiSH]

While I am not an expert on PC, my proposal is leave nurgle worship as is, instead scale PC's repair rate with his level (my idea was kinda like apo for vehicles).

Reasons:
1. Scaling worship according to tiers seems like an arbitrary and unnatural solution.
2. With the PC repairing vehicles, heretics can be more dedicated for worshipping -> no need to scale nurgle worship's health regen rate
3. More dedicated worshipping -> better infantry support for vehicle -> indirectly support vehicle through nurgle worship
4. This should help with the late-game scaling of PC, who currently has the worst late game of all the chaos heroes.

I was thinking the repair rate could go up about 1hp/s every level or something similar. Any opinions on this is very welcome!

P.S. As for demon support, I am not entirely sure what to do. I think some tweaking with breath of nurgle may be viable, but I usually don't build bloodletters when I play PC and making changes to breath of nurgle is a complicated issue, so I won't discuss that matter here.

[Sub_Zero]

I think Plague Champion is effective in all tiers. He is your best melee counter in any tier. Can cap points under fire if he uses "Pestilence strike". Can repair and construct turrets. And turrets are very effective in T3 when your opponent doesn't expect them.

[Raffa]

1. Scaling worship according to tiers seems like an arbitrary and unnatural solution.

No. Scaling with tiers already exists (shootas, termagants, etc..) and works smoothly.

2. With the PC repairing vehicles, heretics can be more dedicated for worshipping -> no need to scale nurgle worship's health regen rate

That logic could be applied to anything where hero and unit abilities overlap.

3. More dedicated worshipping -> better infantry support for vehicle -> indirectly support vehicle through nurgle worship

Further proof any units of the same race can be put in a hypothetical situation where they synergise with each other.

I basically agree with Torpid and Nurland. Again. Vilken jävla överraskning!