Spotter Changes: Discussion

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Now, before I begin, this isn't a rant or anything of that nature. I'm interested to see what other IG players have to say about the changes made to spotters.

From my own personal experience now, having fielded them pretty extensively post nerf, I can say that in the early game, their effect on helping to counter setup teams has fallen pretty significantly. This is better understood when a setup team is put behind heavy cover - from my understanding, the ability to use your ranged DPS to help counter the halved range of the smoke shell effect is nullified by cover. Furthermore, I find it that much more difficult to tie them up in melee, as the commander will most likely die before it even gets to the setup team (inquis probably withstanding if she can get a HotW off).

So my question is this; how are people fairing with the changes? I myself have tried to go with the catachans but I find that their reduced price doesn't really make them all that more attractive unless I'm going for counter initiation. Otherwise, I feel almost no incentive to substitute spotters with catas for disruption. Though, I'm sure those who appreciate Catas more than I do are probably lovin' the change to 'em. So I guess I'm still in a rut. I'm still using the spotters, but I'm pretty much adjusting their purpose and playing a lot less aggressively than I used to.

[Torpid]

When a squad is behind cover you counter them with a mortar shell just behind them to knock them into your range blob and force an instant retreat. The smoke shell is best used to counter the second set-up team hidden away in the back so you can flank/HOTW/Ol'reliable/stomp or just used on ranged blobs to force them to move a bit, which ultimately reduces the damage they're doing and often forces them out of cover.

I think spotters are operating fine now for their price and non-existent bleed.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

When a squad is behind cover you counter them with a mortar shell just behind them to knock them into your range blob and force an instant retreat. The smoke shell is best used to counter the second set-up team hidden away in the back so you can flank/HOTW/Ol'reliable/stomp or just used on ranged blobs to force them to move a bit, which ultimately reduces the damage they're doing and often forces them out of cover.

I think spotters are operating fine now for their price and non-existent bleed.

I am aware, but I've not often been able to maximize on the opportunity with enough DPS to bring them down or force them off because getting into position isn't as easy (assuming you're gm's weren't in the zone of suppression to begin with). In that regard, it's no different from what it was before. But I found that often, I had to use a combination of the two sometimes, and it's the smoke shell that has varied vastly.

[Tex]

I just started a chapter of play into IG and I'm finding that catas into spotters is a fantastic combo. 10 power less in cost makes catas great for early game bullying, and since suppression is a pretty natural counter to them, following up with spotters is a great thing to do.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

I just started a chapter of play into IG and I'm finding that catas into spotters is a fantastic combo. 10 power less in cost makes catas great for early game bullying, and since suppression is a pretty natural counter to them, following up with spotters is a great thing to do.

I've thought of this but the investment seems huge. It's still total of 80 power (I believe? 30 for cata + 20 for demoman iirc) invested in T1, not including anything on your commander. Whenever I think of 100 power spent as IG in T1, I get worried about lagging behind in T2 and onward.

[Tex]

Oh, I only get the demo-man if the opportunity for shenanigans presents itself. I don't think its fair to say you absolutely need him as a squad member.

Also, I think the order in which I do things is highly style dependent. I prefer 3x GM into catas now, but against certain things I would imagine a sentinel being much better. I won't go into detail about why I like 3x GM's, but playing inq means I can make it work because I have a stopper (hotw) without any investment.

[Torpid]

Honestly, the only race in which an additional guardsmen as a replacement for a sentinel is a feasible option is SM due to how well guardsmen counter scouts and scale while sentinels are also really quite weak vs SM. Orks to an extent too, especially as the LC because it makes the weirdboy quite easy to snipe, but even without unless the ork switches their ranged spam build into an AOE spam you can bleed them to death, assuming they do do that though then you're screwed, so you're putting the game in the opponents hands entirely which to say the least is a very cheesy thing to do...

Even then at a none-high level sentinels will perform far better than guardsmen because guardsmen need quite a lot more awareness to pull off, whereas most enemies don't even know how to kill a sentinel; most refuse to get scout snipers, SMs fear vengeance rounds even with such strong libby synergy, most players don't even understand how you bait and pincer sentinels, or bait and then blockade sentinels and concerning sentinel micro is one of the first things that any IG player should learn. I wouldn't recommend 3x GM+cats+spotters as a universal build. 2x GM+sent+hwt+cats is pretty amazing atm though.

[greenelite]

I still do what I've always done, flank with Catachans/hero. If my opponent is too smart for that I give them T1 and tech rush. I've never been a big fan of Spotters and find that two GM and Sentinel are enough to carry me through T1 and even T2 in team games. My dream is to see Spotters replaced by a Mortar team that passively fires shells and the current smoke and incendiary abilities staying as special ammo. I believe there are animations for them in an old Dow 1 mod that we could use assuming the creator is okay with it.

[Sub_Zero]

Can I suggest a nerf? It think spotters' models should have less health. As it stands now you can efficiently kill models with snipers. You can shoot at them twice and they can still remain all their models. Will it be a justifiable nerf to give them less health? 170 per model? Spotters gotta be punished for bad positioning. From my experience they can call in shells being unharmed if you manage them well. They should be like snipers in this regard.

[Caeltos]

Can I suggest a nerf? It think spotters' models should have less health. As it stands now you can efficiently kill models with snipers. You can shoot at them twice and they can still remain all their models. Will it be a justifiable nerf to give them less health? 170 per model? Spotters gotta be punished for bad positioning. From my experience they can call in shells being unharmed if you manage them well. They should be like snipers in this regard.

Snipers should be a viable counter to them, despite them being detectors. They're meant to be punished for bad positioning. It'll probably get readjusted in the future update.

[Torpid]

Snipers actually do pretty great vs IG as they counter everything bar the guardsmen and they transition well into T2 since they counter ST and ogryns pretty well too. All you need then is way to deal with the GM/heroes/chimeras and they're easily dealt with via suppression. It all becomes a micro game then, but you're the one with the range advantage which is always nice. I'm not sure I would want spotters to die in a single sniper shot, however I do think they have a bit too much health right now. They never bleed.

[sk4zi]

give them 5 models with the same squad health and an upgrade for a sergant in t2 for the 3rd shell. then all are happy

[Commissar Yarrick]

Reduced catachan cost not attractive?! That put em into my IG meta game so now I get em in each match I have.