About retreat killing.

[dance commander]

About the Weirdboy and Banshees.

We all know that the weirdboy is a great unit worth the purchase in almost any situation, but there's an issue with him I don't think has been brought up a lot.

A lot of people are recently complaining about banshees capabilities on retreat killing, personally I'm fine with it, when you think about it that's their job, and most of the complaints come from factions that make heavy use of heavy infantry (of course, getting in melee fast and killing heavy infantry is their intended role) I myself am a chaos player, and I admit Banshees killing my squads on retreat made me want to break something more than once, but that's not the point I want to make.

The point is, the weirdboy is incredibly vulnerable to their kill on retreat capabilities, even retreating at full health with the banshees at a good distance can prove fatal if there's nothing opposing their chase, I think it has to do with the very slow speed the weirdboy has when it starts retreating, It's not a glaring issue, but if you attempt to reproduce it you can see what I'm talking about, it's also true that most of the time you'll have shootas and what not to oppose them, but it still seems a bit over the top at the moment.


About single target abilities in the game

Flesh hook, HotW, foul snare (I know it glitches half of the time but still) Inspire terror and the like do you think they should be able to target retreating units (or damage them)?
We all know the effects of inspire terror on a unit like the zoanthrope, but should an ability that doesn't really involve any sort of skill (point and click) give such a reward like a squad kill or hero kill when said unit is already on retreat?
Some single target abilities such as full auto and drain life, abilities that prevent you from retreating and make you extremely vulnerable as a concequence have already been looked at, and while the death spinner, full auto and kustom shoota still work in that sense they are not as bad as before, shouldn't the abilities I mentioned previously be looked at too?
Personally I feel this is one of those thing that "we got used to" and learned to live with it, like so many things in this game, but I'd like to hear what people think about it.

[Commissar Yarrick]

Of what I can tell... Flesh hook can be used against retreating units. Seen it many times.

[dance commander]

Of what I can tell... Flesh hook can be used against retreating units. Seen it many times.

Never implied the opposite.

[Kvek]

Inspire terror-full damage in retreat, flesh hook the same and the guo's hook too. not sure about GK psychic lash

[Ace of Swords]

This abilities shouldn't be able to target single entities especially inspire terror on zoan/libby/painboy etc.

[Lulgrim]

From a technical perspective, we can apply different damage if a unit is retreating or a "single entity" type.

[Kvek]

I don't think the "terror" on zoan is unfair. It's the best counter they have vs him. Buying like 2x storm troopers isn't that great of a counter.

[Asmon]

I do think every one of these abilities should do reduced damage on retreat. It is indeed unfair that they do full damage and it becomes absurd when you consider that TM's HPS and WL's destructor (for instance) do not. They do not for a very good reason: it would make them OP.

I'm very ok with those abilities able to target single entities though. That's part of their design and it must not go. They simply need a lower damage on retreat like any other similar ability.

About weirdboy: he can either target ground or cast warp vomit or Foot of Gork or Warpath before retreating. I suppose we might slightly increase his retreat speed but I don't think this is the issue here.

[dance commander]

I do think every one of these abilities should do reduced damage on retreat. It is indeed unfair that they do full damage and it becomes absurd when you consider that TM's HPS and WL's destructor (for instance) do not. They do not for a very good reason: it would make them OP.

I'm very ok with those abilities able to target single entities though. That's part of their design and it must not go. They simply need a lower damage on retreat like any other similar ability.

About weirdboy: he can either target ground or cast warp vomit or Foot of Gork or Warpath before retreating. I suppose we might slightly increase his retreat speed but I don't think this is the issue here.

I agree, but something like inspire terror is just too effective against zoans, we're talking about a one shot skill on a not so cheap unit, and if said unit is retreated nothing changes, I think on single model units the effect of said abilities should be reduced, while it should remain the same on squads, and of course on retreat they should receive the same treatment of high powered shot and the like.

About the weirdboy it's not that big of a issue, he could just use a little tweaking in the starting retreat speed, much like the wraithguard changes, nothing drastic of course.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

About the weirdboy it's not that big of a issue, he could just use a little tweaking in the starting retreat speed, much like the wraithguard changes, nothing drastic of course.

Weirdboy can simply use Warp Vomit to stun the melee squad and safely retreat later. Without mention that his default attack cause weapon_knockback.

Again, Banshees. These ladies only causes problems.

And i agree with the Single target abilities, and more if they are ranged. They should do less damage against retreating units.

[KanKrusha]

I suspect if weird boy has to retreat in such a way that he is vulnerable to banshees, then he will have already use up his Vomit. As someone who loses a lot of games, weirdboy gets killed in retreat disproportionately more often than other units.

It is a good example of risk-reward being taken too far. He comes out a bit too good and as a result is too vulnerable which is "balanced" but still wonky.

Of all those single target abilities I would like to disagree about Hammer of the Witches. It has a shortened range so you need to get in position like a grenade throw for a retreat kill and while it is good at inf swarmy models like hormogaunts (cheap anyway) it rarely kills commanders or high hit point models. I have killed some retreating eldar heroes (warlock and warp spider ) with it more easily than other races.

It is a good (as in slightly unbalanced) way to feed XP to your hero as you can damage retreating models with it and when subsequently the model dies Inq unfairly gets a share of xp.

Overall, I think it is part of the hero design and would prefer it to Stay. Flesh hook otoh gives other bonuses than just damage - dragging the target back so even if the model doesn't die it will die due to mellee bonus on retreat - and also is less risk to the lictor to use.

[Asmon]

Need to get in position as for a grenade? Lol. HotW is just as good as inspire terror as far as retreat kill are concerned and requires much less skill than a grenade throw. It does 100 damage and good players will save it for when it is deadly just as flesh hook.

The range is indeed short so I'd compare it to PC's DoT to underline his potential. I'm not extremely hostile to that it keeps its damage, but to lower his damage on retreat while increasing his efficiency in combat (up to 20% damage increase for 20s) has my vote.

[KanKrusha]

err, i dont think my comment reads the way i meant it to write it. i was talking solely about killing a running retreating unit when comparing HotW to throwing a grenade. Obviously different in middle of combat when much easier to walk inquisitor up and hammer.

hotW range - 25, eldar plasma grenade range 22

hotW delay 2 seconds + animation during which retreating unit can leave range and cancel ability.
I cant find delay on plasma grenade but it has wind up of 0.6 s but animation takes a bit longer (max projectile speed 15 so probably takes about 1.5-2s seconds to fly)

So yes, very similar range and delay to a grenade and with the same issue of having to allow lead time so target stays in range throughout cast time.

having said all that, now that i have looked in files HoTW does peircing damage and already has a damage to retreating units modifier of 0.2. I knew i didnt want it changed!

Flesh hook and inspire terror retreat modifer = 1

[Nuclear Arbitor]

HotW is easier to pull off but i don't think it's hugely worth comparing. if it's good against retreating units and easy, sure, talk about it, but otherwise meh.

[KanKrusha]

I apologise. I knew HotW was meh on retreat. I didn't want to see it nerfed. I didn't realize it already had been by Relic.

In fact, can we nerf the other 2 and buff hammer up to the same level? (just kidding)

[Ace of Swords]

HotW is easier to pull off but i don't think it's hugely worth comparing. if it's good against retreating units and easy, sure, talk about it, but otherwise meh.

HotW is a control ability that happens to be good at killing thing in retreat that's why relic nerfed the range it was never meant to kill things in retreat.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the range nerf was because it used to out-range setup teams.

[Asmon]

Yes, and the longer animation was to prevent retreat kills indeed.