Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

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Lost Son of Nikhel
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Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sun 02 Jun, 2013 11:20 am

Introduction

The purpose of this thread is to offer a ranged build to the Plague Champion for late Tier 2 and Tier 3.

Right now it's hard to see a different build than the typical Plague Fist + Armor of Pestilence + Breath of Nurgle/Icon of Nurgle. The Bile Spewer and the Plague Sword are powerful in their roles, but niche.

The Bile Spewer it's a great weapon against high model low hp squads, (Imperial Guard, Orks, Tyrannids..) but these squads in T2 or T3 are going to outshoot the Plague Champion, for the lower Bile Spewer range and the slowness of the Plague Champion.

On the other hand, the default Plague Bolter is good, and can be useful against Infantry armor. But again, in late T2 or T3, with the proliferation of Heavy armor and Super Heavy Armor, the default Plague Bolter with his piercing_armour damage loses half of his effectiveness. Not sure if the DOT damage is affected or not by the armour type....

In resume, the Plague Champion don't have an adequate ranged build for late Tier 2 or Tier 3, almost forcing you to buy the Plague Power Fist if you want to use your Plague Champion in combat.

For these reasons, i want to suggest two different wargears to the Plague Champion

Bolter of Silent Diseases
T2
Icon:
Image
Model:
Image
Cost: 150 req/35 energy
This Bolter shoots Plague ammo, which causes very light damage but infects the objective with a variety of Nurgle diseases. The Bolter do 5 piercing_damage per shoot and the affected unit receives 6 plasma damage each second for 5 seconds. The DOT can stack. Rest of statistics are equal as any Bolter. 15 dps melee damage.

Purpose/Role:
this weapon enhances the DOT damage of the Plague Champion and turn him into the most powerful ranged retreat killer in the game.

One can think that this weapon is an underpowered one because his direct damage is extremely low (even less than a single Plague Marine direct bolter damage). And his DOT, even is if very powerful, is on the level of the Sternguard hellfire ammo.

People tends to underestimate the power of the DOTs. Good players learn to be very careful with low hp squads/(sub)commanders when there is a PC on the field, and learn to retreat earlier their squads or force retreat the enemy PC first.

Have in mind that the DOT damage AFAIK ignores cover, garrisons and the retreat ranged protection. And the ranged damage taken reduction if one squad is in melee combat too IIRC.

With this weapon, the PC is going to do less damage than the default Techmarine bolter (like 30 dps vs the ~35 dps) . The damage per shot is lower than the default PC bolter.

So, why is the reason to buy this weapon? His constant damage in almost any situation.

Where the (for example) vanilla Techmarine bolter is going to shred his target in open field, his damage is going to be lower if the objective is in heavy/light/garrison cover. And of course, except if is a very wounded squad, the enemy squad could retreat without lose too much additional health/squad members.

On the other hand, the PC with the Bolter of Silent Diseases is going to do less damage in open ground than the TM bolter, but much more if the objective is in any cover. And of course, if the player underestimate the DOT damage, could lose more easily squad members or even the full squad if he don't retreat earlier his squad.

With this bolter, you forces the micro of your opponent, because he have to decide if he focus the damage on your PC to avoid the possible model loses if the combat turns against him and have to retreat wounded squads or in other squad like your heretics and forces him to be much more careful with low HP squads and even retreat them earlier to avoid model loses for the potent DOT damage.

In the beginning i said that this Bolter is created to give the PC a late T2 and T3 ranged weapon against HI and SHI, not Infantry. For this reason, and to avoid too much massacre in low hp high model squad I decide to make this DOT plasma_damage type, more effective against Terminators, Nobz, Super Units..

Counters: where suppression isn't effective because don't affect the PC, knockback or forcing melee with him are the best ways to avoid his DOT damage.

Questions!
  • 1. The DOT damage type is affected by the armor, as any other direct damage?
  • 2. In the same way, the DOT is affected by the retreat ranged reduction? In the other DOTs the damage have no type IIRC, but plasma is a ranged one, so maybe it could affected by the retreat protection. Same with cover/garrison/defensive buff which protect against ranged damage.
  • 3. The DOT is too high or too low? In the beginning I have though in a 4 damage per second for 5 seconds, but for a T2 weapon I think it's too low.
  • 4. The 5 piercing_damage per shot is there to avoid bugs, because I'm not very sure if the game engine accept attacks without damage but with additional characteristics. This damage could be eliminated if not.

Armor of Corrupted life.
T2
Icon:
Image
Cost: 150 req/30 energy.
This armor, which was in the beginning owned by a Mars Techmarine, is filled now with the Nurgle's unholy life essence. This armor increases the DOT damage of any PC Bolter by 2 and gives to the Bile Spewer the ability to increase the damage taken by 10% to the affected squads (apart of his default debuffs) . Gives the Nurgling Trap ability, plague mines which slows vehicles and infantry. Also increases the HP by 150 and energy by 50.

Purpose/Role: increase the effectiveness of the PC ranged weapons.
- The default Plague Bolter it's a good anti-Infantry weapon with retreat killing possibilities, and is liked for a variety of players. With this armor, the PC retains his default bolter and increases his ranged effectiveness.
- The Bolter of Silent Diseases obtains more DOT damage, which with the BoSD and the Armor of Corrupted Life the PC have a 12 damage per seconds for 5 seconds against HI and SHI. (60 damage per shot in almost any situation)
- The Bile Spewer buff it's the most difficult to think: a damage increase will allow the PC to burn genfarms too much quickly; a range increase would be not bad, but... I decide to a damage taken debuff for the PC main role: defensive strategy.

Nurgling Trap
Icon
Image
Cost: 40 energy, 4 seconds to construct it.
Burrows an Nurgling that explodes in a mucus puddle when enemy units come too close. When the trap is created, takes 2 seconds to activate and infiltrate itself. The Nurgling Trap slows enemy infantry or vehicles in radius 10 for 12 seconds

Purpose/Role: anticipation / terrain preparation for a future battle. The PC is a defensive commander, and can create a good bunker with his abilities + Nurgle Shrine + his Turret + heretics. But I feel he could have more terrain preparation to complement his defensive skills.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

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Re: Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 02 Jun, 2013 1:37 pm

The bolter seems solid enough.
Not sure how the DoT will work out but it can be increased/decreased after testing.
(If ever implemented ^^)

The Armour has too many traits. Shouldn't give you all of that.
It's like artificer armour + signum armour + extra energy :p
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Re: Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby Indrid » Sun 02 Jun, 2013 2:35 pm

Nice ideas but I don't like the names. :S

I suggest Herald's Bolter and Armor of Corruption.

It'll be very tricky to give the PC any more ranged weapons IMO. Any plasma weaponry would really hurt the already small niche that the Plague Sword has. Most people would wait to T2 and pay slightly more for a plasma weapon I think. Given his HP and speed it'd almost always be the better option. If you look at the TM in contrast the Axe gives him access to a tanky, disruptive melee build which the PC can access with Fist/Pestilence/whatever.

You also have to look at the disconnect of giving a bolter weapon plasma damage, which could confuse and frustrate new players trying to get to grips with all the weapon and damage types.

IMO any plasma weaponry should give the PC a different dimension as opposed to just more ranged damage vs HI/SHI. I don't like the PC as a DPS machine like the TM can be; I prefer him as a debilitating, debuffing, pain in the ass comm.
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Re: Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sun 02 Jun, 2013 6:23 pm

Dark Riku wrote:The Armour has too many traits. Shouldn't give you all of that.
It's like artificer armour + signum armour + extra energy :p

In fact, the armour it's a weaker mix of Artificer armour + Signum armour, and the Mines are a weaker version of the Techmarine mines.

Have in mind that the traits depends of the weapon.

Indrid wrote:It'll be very tricky to give the PC any more ranged weapons IMO. Any plasma weaponry would really hurt the already small niche that the Plague Sword has. Most people would wait to T2 and pay slightly more for a plasma weapon I think. Given his HP and speed it'd almost always be the better option. If you look at the TM in contrast the Axe gives him access to a tanky, disruptive melee build which the PC can access with Fist/Pestilence/whatever.

The Plague Sword is already hurted by the Plague Fist.

On the contrary, IMHO the Bolter isn't going to hurt the Plague Sword role: fight against heavy swarmy melee builds and as bodyguard against Jump squads in T1. I don't see where the Bolter of Silent Diseases (or Herald's Bolter :P ) is going to overshadow the Plague Sword in his role.

Moreover, the Plague Sword and my Bolter idea have opposite damage ways: the Plague Sword it's a brute instant damage dealer, and the Bolter a DOT one.

Indrid wrote:You also have to look at the disconnect of giving a bolter weapon plasma damage, which could confuse and frustrate new players trying to get to grips with all the weapon and damage types.

The plasma_damage DOT, as i said, has his reason: avoid massacre in low hp high model Infantry armor types and increased damage against HI and SHI armour, which is in essence the reason i create this bolter.

Also, for avoid too much work when (if) it becomes implemented.

And i don't think this it's going to confuse too much new player than other weapons. (Warlock's default weapon/Witchblade of Kurnous) In fact, the new model could advise that the PC have this bolter. And of course, this weapon could have the adequate unit indicator.

Indrid wrote:IMO any plasma weaponry should give the PC a different dimension as opposed to just more ranged damage vs HI/SHI. I don't like the PC as a DPS machine like the TM can be; I prefer him as a debilitating, debuffing, pain in the ass comm.

For debuff purposes you have the Bile Spewer. And this Bolter isn't going to make the PC a ZOMFG DPS machine. The PC with Bolter os Silent Diseases + Armor of Corrupted Life is going to do 60 ((6 for the weapon + 2 for the armour)*1.5 *5) damage per hit against HI/SHI, when the Techmarine with his Plasma weapon is going to do 135 damage per hit.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

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Re: Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby Asmon » Sun 02 Jun, 2013 6:29 pm

  • 1. The DOT damage type is affected by the armor, as any other direct damage? Yes.
  • 2. In the same way, the DOT is affected by the retreat ranged reduction? In the other DOTs the damage have no type IIRC, but plasma is a ranged one, so maybe it could affected by the retreat protection. Most DoT have a 1 retreat modifier. And every one of them has a damage type.
  • 3. The DOT is too high or too low? In the beginning I have though in a 4 damage per second for 5 seconds, but for a T2 weapon I think it's too low. 4 damage per second for 5 seconds per hit is already a very good DoT.
  • 4. The 5 piercing_damage per shot is there to avoid bugs, because I'm not very sure if the game engine accept attacks without damage but with additional characteristics. This damage could be eliminated if not. You could say 1 damage per shot then?

About the bolter: with the ability to reload at normal speed under suppression, it will shred HI suppression teams and BSW.

The armor is much too good.

Also, the WoK does have an icon.
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Re: Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 02 Jun, 2013 8:06 pm

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:
Dark Riku wrote:The Armour has too many traits. Shouldn't give you all of that.
It's like artificer armour + signum armour + extra energy :p

In fact, the armour it's a weaker mix of Artificer armour + Signum armour, and the Mines are a weaker version of the Techmarine mines.

Have in mind that the traits depends of the weapon.


Whut?

Artificer Armor: Enables the Proximity Mine ability. Also increases the Techmarine's health by 200 and health regeneration by 0.3.

Signum Armor: Grants the Mark Target ability which increases the damage taken by the targeted enemy. Also increases the Techmarine's ranged damage by 10%, range by 5 and health by 50.

What does your proposal get? Proximity Mines, 150hp, ranged damage increase + an aditional 50 energy for whatever reason.
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Re: Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby dance commander » Sun 02 Jun, 2013 8:26 pm

To be fair it lacks the health regen, the ability, and the range increase, so it's not all those wargears combined into one, also the mines lack a damaging component (unless he forgot to mention it) so having more energy to plant more makes sense, but it's not completely necessary.

Still I would try ditching the armor idea completely and make one based on the shuma Typhus model, like Indrid(?) suggested once, I guess it could work very much like the FC termi armor, in terms of the way it upgrades.
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Re: Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 02 Jun, 2013 9:25 pm

Well ofcource it lacks those, it already has multiple traits from multiple armors.
It still has to many traits like this.

Disruption and especially slows are the most powerful of things in this game.
So being able to spam them don't make sense to me.
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Re: Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sun 02 Jun, 2013 10:39 pm

Asmon wrote:
  • 3. The DOT is too high or too low? In the beginning I have though in a 4 damage per second for 5 seconds, but for a T2 weapon I think it's too low. 4 damage per second for 5 seconds per hit is already a very good DoT.
  • 4. The 5 piercing_damage per shot is there to avoid bugs, because I'm not very sure if the game engine accept attacks without damage but with additional characteristics. This damage could be eliminated if not. You could say 1 damage per shot then?

About the bolter: with the ability to reload at normal speed under suppression, it will shred HI suppression teams and BSW.

The armor is much too good.

The DOT it's fine IMHO.
1. The DOT it's the only ranged damage that the Bolter have.

2. In pure DPS aspects, AFAIK, and to compare, the Techmarine Plasma Gun without any other different wargear do much more damage against HI/SHI in open field and light cover, a bit less damage if they are in heavy cover and less than the PC with the Bolter AND the armour.

The only issue could be against retreating HI/SHI units/(sub)commanders, but again, this damage it's the only that compensate the "mediocre" combat power.

3. Against HWT with HI armor: i have to admit that the DOT damage could be dangerous against a lone Devastator/Havoc squad. But with the support of the rest of the army they aren't going to be ripped so easily.

Yes, i could said that the Bolter could do 1 damage per shot. The important characteristic is the DOT.

Dark Riku wrote:Well ofcource it lacks those, it already has multiple traits from multiple armors.
It still has to many traits like this.

Disruption and especially slows are the most powerful of things in this game.
So being able to spam them don't make sense to me.

I still don't see where it's the armor OP. The damage (or debuff) increase depends of the weapon; the Nurgling Trap ability it's a nerfed one: doesn't damage at all, doesn't suppress, not knockback, the snare it's the weakest of any Mine...; no HP or energy regeneration...

Ok, i suppose the HP increase it's too much, because in his deffensive role he is suppose to be in cover and not in front line, taking damage. The energy must stay, for his synergy with Breath of Nurgle/Bilious Discharge. Ok, i admit that the PC isn't the most energy intensive commander, but at the same time he doesn't have any quick energy regeneration increase.

Dance Commander wrote:To be fair it lacks the health regen, the ability, and the range increase, so it's not all those wargears combined into one, also the mines lack a damaging component (unless he forgot to mention it) so having more energy to plant more makes sense, but it's not completely necessary.

Still I would try ditching the armor idea completely and make one based on the shuma Typhus model, like Indrid(?) suggested once, I guess it could work very much like the FC termi armor, in terms of the way it upgrades.

For tanky purposes, the PC have the Pestilence Armor, that now have an awesome ability.

And what defensive purpose would have a Nurgle Terminator upgrade (which could be awesome!) for the PC?
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

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Re: Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby Asmon » Sun 02 Jun, 2013 11:04 pm

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:The DOT it's fine IMHO.
...


Well it heavily depends on many factors: burst duration, cooldown, reload time and reload frequency. TM's plasma gun has no burst duration and shoots once every 2s.

But bolters do have a burst duration, for instance PC's is 2 seconds, during which every successful hit triggers a DoT (2 piercing per second for 5s). And only a 1s cooldown.

You introduced a bolter. What kind of burst duration do you want? Because with a non-zero burst duration, it might be one or two hit guaranteed every shot. And unless you plan to have a long cooldown, it seems to me that your bolter will have very high dps plasma damage that ignore any cover or retreat modifier.

You also need to think about accuracy and fotm.
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Re: Plague Champion Wargear suggestion (Ranged build)

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Mon 03 Jun, 2013 9:05 am

Asmon wrote:Well it heavily depends on many factors: burst duration, cooldown, reload time and reload frequency. TM's plasma gun has no burst duration and shoots once every 2s.

But bolters do have a burst duration, for instance PC's is 2 seconds, during which every successful hit triggers a DoT (2 piercing per second for 5s). And only a 1s cooldown.

You introduced a bolter. What kind of burst duration do you want? Because with a non-zero burst duration, it might be one or two hit guaranteed every shot. And unless you plan to have a long cooldown, it seems to me that your bolter will have very high dps plasma damage that ignore any cover or retreat modifier.

You also need to think about accuracy and fotm.

Damn Eldar, you have right.

Maybe a 1 second burst duration? Less burst time -> Less shots per burst -> less burst damage?
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

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