When/Why to get Mark of Khorne CSM?

[Surprise Attack!]

I don't really play CSM, but I've been doing some research on them since I'm kinda bad against them with my IG. It then occurred to me that I've never really seen Mark of Khorne CSM before... Why is that? When would I want Khorne CSM?

I know they do a great deal of melee power damage, which seems excellent(esp combined with plasma pistols), but most of the time people seem to either keep their CSM in EW or get Mark of Tzeentch. To me it would seem like an upgrade for a CSM squad which had EW for most of the game but was then forced to deal with termies. Is this the case?

[Swift]

I would get them when there is a lot of melee to counter and I am not playing Sorceror, but they are often more favourable if you have a havoc squad for av which needs protecting, in which case having tics and KCSM makes jump units think twice about going for havocs.

[Vapor]

I get them if I don't think my opponent will be able to react to a sudden melee threat. Like vs. sm without shotgun scouts or IG without catachans. They are pretty good for the purpose of overwhelming the enemy with melee but if he can equip counters quickly then you'll wish you stuck to ranged csm.

[Nurland]

They are a bit more situational and timing sensitive units than TCSM but they have their uses. They can be useful when you go mass melee and just try to drown your enemy with melee. You just can't usually lead charges with them. You need someting to spearhead and soak a bit damage for them and then get the KCSM in. Or use them as a bodyguard unit.

[Torpid]

They're obviously more fit for 1v1 than team games for numerous reasons.

1) team games feature more sources of knockback and more sources of ranged damage simply due to the fact that there are more opposing squads, so you're more likely to just bleed with your melee squads unless your ally has a similar amount of melee and you time your attacks.

2) Khorne marines are most useful when flanking squads and gobbling them up with their solid dps and high speed. Flanking is meh in team and practically impossible on some maps.

3) The biggest boon of KCSM is their speed which makes them very good at map control. But who cares about map control in team games?

In 1v1 they can be used in unison with another TCSM to counter-initiate against heroes/jump squads that try to tie up the TCSM. Alternatively they can be used as a solo capping unit similar to t2 sluggas or t2 catachans. Few things can solo them, add in their speed and very good ranged dps and they make a very nice solo capper (they beat a lot of melee heroes too). With that said, it should be noted they kill heroes very fast and their speed can often lead to wipes. They're very nice for chasing around autarches for that reason, as the autarch slaughters TCSM and she's too fast for most chaos squads to keep up with anyway.

Finally they counter transports really well, better than raptors despite the lack of heavy melee due to their extra speed meaning that once they start their melee charge they won't stop until knocking back or suppressed by something. This is very useful vs an IG with a chimera and basically forces a HWT purchase which can then be countered by T2 raptors and a BC (assuming sentinels are dead, which is something else KCSM are very good at killing), or BLs and a BC/Tdread if ogryns are present.

[Surprise Attack!]

They're obviously more fit for 1v1 than team games for numerous reasons.

1) team games feature more sources of knockback and more sources of ranged damage simply due to the fact that there are more opposing squads, so you're more likely to just bleed with your melee squads unless your ally has a similar amount of melee and you time your attacks.

2) Khorne marines are most useful when flanking squads and gobbling them up with their solid dps and high speed. Flanking is meh in team and practically impossible on some maps.

3) The biggest boon of KCSM is their speed which makes them very good at map control. But who cares about map control in team games?

In 1v1 they can be used in unison with another TCSM to counter-initiate against heroes/jump squads that try to tie up the TCSM. Alternatively they can be used as a solo capping unit similar to t2 sluggas or t2 catachans. Few things can solo them, add in their speed and very good ranged dps and they make a very nice solo capper (they beat a lot of melee heroes too). With that said, it should be noted they kill heroes very fast and their speed can often lead to wipes. They're very nice for chasing around autarches for that reason, as the autarch slaughters TCSM and she's too fast for most chaos squads to keep up with anyway.

Finally they counter transports really well, better than raptors despite the lack of heavy melee due to their extra speed meaning that once they start their melee charge they won't stop until knocking back or suppressed by something. This is very useful vs an IG with a chimera and basically forces a HWT purchase which can then be countered by T2 raptors and a BC (assuming sentinels are dead, which is something else KCSM are very good at killing), or BLs and a BC/Tdread if ogryns are present.

This makes sense as to why I haven't really seen them, as I mostly play team games. I have no macro ability whatsoever, and at the moment do not have time to invest time in getting my macro better by playing 1v1's a lot, unfortunately.

[Swift]

I agree with Torpid, they are much more valuable in 1v1 than 3v3, I would often get 1 KCSM and 1 TCSM. If I did play CL (which would make my life a lot easier thaan pc and Sorceror) I would go full melee just for the psychological damage a full melee build can cause

[Tex]

IMO there are only 2 reasons left to purchase KCSM, and both of these reasons exist in the 1v1 setting.

1) Independent unit - KCSM have high speed, melee skill, and a great damage type. Not many units in the game can take them head on, or successfully kite them, especially in tier 2. If you are going to use them in this fashion, the best window is to get them as soon as tier 2 hits, and to immediately dedicate them to locking down at least a third of the map.

2) In pairs - KCSM aren't really much of a spearhead unit on their own, but when used in pairs, the dynamic completely changes. The flanking capacity and sheer killyness makes them absolutely frightful when you are staring at 8 instead of just 4. Here is an example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoV44Qd ... 17C24D1117. Using them in pairs of course means that you have purchased 2 CSM squads in tier 1. Purchasing another CSM squad in T2 should almost automatically mean that you have purchased them solely to upgrade into TCSM. By T2, bloodletters are a much better purchase if you don't have 2 CSM squads.

[Surprise Attack!]

IMO there are only 2 reasons left to purchase KCSM, and both of these reasons exist in the 1v1 setting.

1) Independent unit - KCSM have high speed, melee skill, and a great damage type. Not many units in the game can take them head on, or successfully kite them, especially in tier 2. If you are going to use them in this fashion, the best window is to get them as soon as tier 2 hits, and to immediately dedicate them to locking down at least a third of the map.

2) In pairs - KCSM aren't really much of a spearhead unit on their own, but when used in pairs, the dynamic completely changes. The flanking capacity and sheer killyness makes them absolutely frightful when you are staring at 8 instead of just 4. Here is an example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoV44Qd ... 17C24D1117. Using them in pairs of course means that you have purchased 2 CSM squads in tier 1. Purchasing another CSM squad in T2 should almost automatically mean that you have purchased them solely to upgrade into TCSM. By T2, bloodletters are a much better purchase if you don't have 2 CSM squads.

Awesome info as always Tex, just like those Orky tips you gave me so long ago! Thanks!

[Surprise Attack!]

IMO there are only 2 reasons left to purchase KCSM, and both of these reasons exist in the 1v1 setting.

1) Independent unit - KCSM have high speed, melee skill, and a great damage type. Not many units in the game can take them head on, or successfully kite them, especially in tier 2. If you are going to use them in this fashion, the best window is to get them as soon as tier 2 hits, and to immediately dedicate them to locking down at least a third of the map.

2) In pairs - KCSM aren't really much of a spearhead unit on their own, but when used in pairs, the dynamic completely changes. The flanking capacity and sheer killyness makes them absolutely frightful when you are staring at 8 instead of just 4. Here is an example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoV44Qd ... 17C24D1117. Using them in pairs of course means that you have purchased 2 CSM squads in tier 1. Purchasing another CSM squad in T2 should almost automatically mean that you have purchased them solely to upgrade into TCSM. By T2, bloodletters are a much better purchase if you don't have 2 CSM squads.

I just wanted to report back that thanks to this idea, Chaos is now my favorite faction. I went double KCSM, a Khorne Dreadnought, and two AC tic's. It was hilarious, especially with worship. I honestly had no idea khorne worship's speed buff was that good.

[Atlas]

Believe it, that speed and damage bonus is nothing to laugh at.

With the new patch changes, I think you might see them in more in general. Those are some nice health buffs.

[Torpid]

Khorne worship only grants a speed buff. Khorne shrines however passively grant a 10% damage bonus to nearby units.

[Atlas]

Khorne worship only grants a speed buff. Khorne shrines however passively grant a 10% damage bonus to nearby units.

Ah my bad. Mixing the bonuses up there. It's as Torpid says

[Surprise Attack!]

Hi guys, after more experimentation, I've found that my aspiring champion dies really fast, and due to the need to repurchase him, I find it better to not make the purchase at all. When would I want a KCSM ac? Unlike the raptor ac he doesn't add things like heavy melee and seems to be a stronger fourth model that costs power.

[BaptismByLoli]

I've been rocking double KCSM since people rarely expect that build.. Especially vs SM's or Nids etc and let me tell you 1 thing. That Melta Pistol greatly helps in retreat kills. So does the improved health and extra DPS when attacking (retreating) units. The AC rarely dies for me since I usually make sure to spam Worship and Malignant Blindness.

You have seen nothing until you see Baseball Bat + Bloodlust + 2 KCSM (each with AC) + Letters + Raptors.

Then he gets a melee walker... So now I abandoned letters in favour of T2 Havocs purchase

[Tex]

You don't need the AC, but you definitely want to get him if you are using the KCSM as a soft counter to a wartrukk kind of vehicle. That melta pistol man.