Ironically I am another noob asking for help with the Eldar/IG equation, but from the opposite perspective.
Playing Farseer what can I do to cripple or kill a Sentinel in T1?
So far my soluton is apparently "nothing."
Avengers, even in cover, don't hit hard enough nor survive.
Banshees get stomped dead.
I don't use Rangers enough, which is probably my fail.
The Farseer lasts longer, but accomplishes about as much as anything else and ganging up with support gets some damage done...unless the IG player brought Guardsmen to shoot my sad Spess Elfs while they try to drive the Sentinel off at which point it's casualties and retreat time.
Thoughts?
Thanks.
Sentinels.
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IdranelLives
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun 07 Dec, 2014 1:48 pm
Re: Sentinels.
Guided rangers and shurikens. Based on my experience the key to killing Sentinels is either a) high bursts of damage (bit harder in T1) or b) forcing off the repair support first. Focusing down the GM fast makes the Sentinel quite vulnerable to high Eldar ranged dps. Also make use of the energy shields and grenades. Try to avoid bleeding too much to the sentinels. Eldar models are fairly expensive and bleed easily before you get the aspects and/or squad leaders going.
I am sure someone like Torpid could provide with more accurate and in-depth advice. But these are some basics on how to deal with Sents.
I am sure someone like Torpid could provide with more accurate and in-depth advice. But these are some basics on how to deal with Sents.
#noobcodex
Re: Sentinels.
Big maps - 3 dire avengers early on into a shuriken then a ranger. In T2 get a falcon or wraithguard depending on their AV scenario (avoid getting falcons if they have multiple sentinels still alive as missle sents take down falcons so easily it is terrifying, yet WG can kill sentinels very quickly, if they get ogryns a falcon can be very strong) then whichever you choose get the other next as well as fully upgrading all your dire avengers, then buy another shuriken, keep the double suppression split up covering different parts of the map.
If they get a chimera get a brightlance, alongside your WG and the falcon it should be sufficient to deal with the chim.
After you have all that you want to start upgrading your farseer - rune armour is a very powerful upgrade here since it gives you the energy to also justifiably buy spirit stones (which I recommend buying in T1 unless you lose lots of map control in the first few engagements and feel you are being hugely out-teched) AND doombringer, which itself is a very good purchase in T2 as it helps deal with the sentinels/chimera as well as making squads (including ogryns) absolutely melt to wraithguard. It also increases the farseers ranged damage considerably while she is stood still behind cover, very handy vs IG. Of course rune armour also gives you that ridiculously OP ability which instantly forces a retreat on suppressed guardsmen, note you have 3 forms of suppression too - two shurikens and the wraithguard. Combo them to force off squads instantly and remember you can guide your wraithguard/shuriken first which combined with the brilliant natural sight radius of the farseer makes it easy to suppress your foe's squads without him even being able to see your units (since for him they are in the fog of war still). This is especially good with wraithguard vs guardsmen/stormtroopers in cover. Also remember you can use farsight to give you line of sight to let your brightlance catch that chimera, or to quickly detect infiltrated stormtroopers who may grenade your shuriken if your rangers are elsewhere.
If you lose your rangers/shurikens it is often best to replace them. Replacing the dire avengers is unwise; they are not strong enough by default and too costly to fully upgrade from scratch for it to be worth it once you are already in T2, instead just purchase more shurikens/wraithguard. You nearly always want a ranger not only are they fantastic due to their holo-field ability which lets you infiltrate shurikens to snipe sentinels/ig heroes (IG has a serious detection problem), but their main use is their fantastic sight range combined with infiltration. Because IG lack any real detection outside of the servo skull of the inquisitor in this match-up your rangers can get very close to the IG army and let you see their entire composition and with that you know whether or not you want to commit with your falcon/wraithguard/shuriken to go bash their gen farm. You know which side the ogryns will come charging in at and therefore which way to position your shuriken. Also, they detect stormtroopers which are very annoying in both forms. In melta form they will kill fire prisms/falcons near-instantly from rear armour and there is very little that can be done about it so always keep your rangers near such vehicles. Assault-kit stormtroopers are just as annoying because they can insta-kill shurikens which are not behind energy shields through a point-blank grenade + one burst of their hotshot lasguns.
T3 is simple - Fire prisms. Just spam prisms + shurikens and keep at least one ranger squad alive. That combination makes it impossible for the IG to do anything. Keep building energy shields for your shurikens so that the burst damage of lemans/stormtroopers/kasrkin is negated and just wait for the VPs to trickle down. Buy time field for your farseer and combine it with wraithguard + the fire prism to massacre both infantry and vehicle. You could even combine time field + an eldritch storm if you have the red, it's a very good way to deal with lemans or even baneblades, although getting a baneblade vs eldar is foolish due to wraithguard, especially vs the farseer since she can guide them/heal them :O Remember YOU ALWAYS NEED RANGERS, you do not want to be caught unaware of a YOLO-leman flanking your prism from the side and taking it out in 2shots, nor do you want to unaware of infiltrated melta-stormtroopers which insta-kill prisms. Besides, prisms have terrible sight range but fantastic actual range. Rangers have great sight range and can infiltrate so they can get really close to the enemy without losing models. The pair synergises amazingly.
On smaller maps I would recommend going for 2 avengers, shuriken, rangers, shuriken instead. T2/T3 is the same as big maps though.
Regarding positioning/map prioritisation and the actual question of how to deal with sentinels:
In T1 as an eldar you must play extremely defensive. It is only in T2 that you start to push against the IG. Don't cap expansively; stick to capping points closest to your base early on and don't worry too much about VPs, prioritise req instead. Blob up your dire avengers a lot (always have two together), if you ever send a unit to cap on their own the farseer does well in the very early game when you have no power units out, but once your ranger/shuriken hit the field cap with one avenger that you don't upgrade in T1 the use the farseer's sight range + guide +rangers to really pressure those sentinels. If the IG is blobbing up his army to repair something like double sentinels slowly approach by setting up energy shields just out of the range of gunfire then place a shuriken behind it and guide it to suppress the guardsmen then fleet in your farseer while moving forward your avengers AND your shuriken (at this point the shuriken should be prioritising their hero so it cannot tie the shuriken up have rangers nearby so you have the sight range to be aware of flanks, if there is no hero nearby focus down the guardsmen), your two avengers should focus fire guardsmen squads, one at a time don't split your fire between two squads, meanwhile the rangers should be taking constant shots at the sentinels and being positioned behind the avengers and to the side of the shuriken so they lose no models yet can spot flanks.
Deal with their hero with your shuriken guided or otherwise. In T1 the farseer makes a great capping unit as she can easily solo anything other than the LC/IQ/catachans that she will meet capping.
Only buy upgrades once all your other squads are out. Then prioritise getting two battle equipment upgrades for mainly the shields+extra hp but the grenades are nice too on suppressed squads/retreating catachans (lol). Then if you feel you have had the better end of map control and not bled too much get spirit stones for your farseer and remember not to always use guide/fleet at the start of each engagement when you have spirit stones in T1. Instead wait for your units to lose hp but not models then pop spirit stones + guide so that you always have enough energy to use it!
Then when you start to go T2 while you are in the middle of upgrading to it you should buy the pathfinder upgrade for your rangers and the final battle equipment on your capping avenger, also get doombringer on the farseer then once you hit T2 buy the power cheap (good job after spending all that power while teching right? Isn't it like eldar were designed to slaughter IG?) wraithguard. If you time all this right there will be no delay when you hit T2 to when you buy WG and you will gain a colossal spike in combat-prowess once you hit T2 and they come out. Remember the farseer can provide wriathsight to your wraithguard so bring her back to your base to escort them to the frontlines (or use webway gates to move them to the frontlines instantly, which you can them combine with guide+the infiltration of the farseer webway gate to wipe the sentinels instantly with infiltrated wraithguard+Ranger shots), while you meanwhile buy the 3 exarchs on your avengers, get the exarchs on the squad which has the most exp first and the squad with least exp last. At this point with 3 fully upgraded avengers, infiltrated rangers, a shuriken, wraithguard and doom you can just blob-push their generators/sentinels to wipe them out very quickly with wraithguard. Be wary of the IG running away and trying to counter-bash in this time, you can send your avengers+Farseer back to deal with this and have them waiting by your gen farm with energy shields up so the IG simply cannot push against you while on the other side of the map wraithguard are bashing the gens while a shuriken covers them from being tied up and rangers protect both from infiltrated stormtroopers/heroes/ogryns.
The key thing to note then? In T1 you play defensive, in T2 you play offensive.
Tips/tricks for beating IG as eldar in general:
Blob your dire avengers a lot in T1 then in T2 use them as capping units, keeping 1 with your main force to put down energy shields/repair.
Remember to use attack ground with the wraithguard; it an force off ogryns instantly if used properly.
Always think about sight range. The farseer is the best hero vs IG because of her natural sight range combined with the farseer global, guide, doom, spirit stones, psychic storm AND the infiltration her gate offers. Remember you can guide vehicles such as fire prisms to give them amazing range and combine this with farsight/ranger's sight range/the farseers sight range to kill the IG from distances where he can do nothing except suck up the losses.
Don't take engagements unless you have to. This should be a general rule for eldar but applies mostly to the IG/eldar MU. IG win not through map control but by bleeding their foes far more than themselves. If you stall the IG army with your main force using shurikens/energy shields while capping the map with your extra avenger/farseer you will get to T2 first. If you get to T2 first you will get to T3 first. If you get out a prism when the IG lacks a leman russ the only thing they have to kill it is a lucky manticore shot (which would require terrible micro on your behalf), melta storms/infiltrated ogryns/las-hwts via the inquisitor (but you have rangers anyway) or sentinels (but you have wraithguard+guidable shurikens/avengers/falcons/rangers and the doom ability the sentinels will die instantly).
Utilise the farseer's innate wraithsight so you don't waste resources on the warlock for the wraithguard who only ends up dying all the time and stunning the rest of the squad anyway.
P.S if you play team-games then the answer is far far far far far more simple. Simply request that your allies send a ranged squad down into your lane for the first two engagements. If they can't micro in two lanes this early on in the game then they suck ass and your team deserves to lose. Meanwhile you play defensively and fend off the IG with 2 avengers and your allies ranged squad + your farseer. Then you build a shuriken and use that defensively to halt the sentinel pushes vs your avengers, at this point your ally can take his squad back to his lane. Then you buy 2 rangers as rangers are OP in team games and use them to harrass the sentinel/go to the other lanes and snipe enemy set-up teams. Upgrade your avengers then and spam energy shields all over your lane so the IG cannot push against you.
Go T2 get double wraithguard and go push back the IG, follow it up with banshees. At this point you may as well send 1 WG + banshees to a different lane to make that lane practically unbeatable, meanwhile the IG cries simply at trying to defeat 1 WG + shuriken + 2 avengers and a farseer.
Get T3 and spam prisms unless you are vs a force commander/kommando knob in which case get an avatar. Send everything into the VP lane.
If they get a chimera get a brightlance, alongside your WG and the falcon it should be sufficient to deal with the chim.
After you have all that you want to start upgrading your farseer - rune armour is a very powerful upgrade here since it gives you the energy to also justifiably buy spirit stones (which I recommend buying in T1 unless you lose lots of map control in the first few engagements and feel you are being hugely out-teched) AND doombringer, which itself is a very good purchase in T2 as it helps deal with the sentinels/chimera as well as making squads (including ogryns) absolutely melt to wraithguard. It also increases the farseers ranged damage considerably while she is stood still behind cover, very handy vs IG. Of course rune armour also gives you that ridiculously OP ability which instantly forces a retreat on suppressed guardsmen, note you have 3 forms of suppression too - two shurikens and the wraithguard. Combo them to force off squads instantly and remember you can guide your wraithguard/shuriken first which combined with the brilliant natural sight radius of the farseer makes it easy to suppress your foe's squads without him even being able to see your units (since for him they are in the fog of war still). This is especially good with wraithguard vs guardsmen/stormtroopers in cover. Also remember you can use farsight to give you line of sight to let your brightlance catch that chimera, or to quickly detect infiltrated stormtroopers who may grenade your shuriken if your rangers are elsewhere.
If you lose your rangers/shurikens it is often best to replace them. Replacing the dire avengers is unwise; they are not strong enough by default and too costly to fully upgrade from scratch for it to be worth it once you are already in T2, instead just purchase more shurikens/wraithguard. You nearly always want a ranger not only are they fantastic due to their holo-field ability which lets you infiltrate shurikens to snipe sentinels/ig heroes (IG has a serious detection problem), but their main use is their fantastic sight range combined with infiltration. Because IG lack any real detection outside of the servo skull of the inquisitor in this match-up your rangers can get very close to the IG army and let you see their entire composition and with that you know whether or not you want to commit with your falcon/wraithguard/shuriken to go bash their gen farm. You know which side the ogryns will come charging in at and therefore which way to position your shuriken. Also, they detect stormtroopers which are very annoying in both forms. In melta form they will kill fire prisms/falcons near-instantly from rear armour and there is very little that can be done about it so always keep your rangers near such vehicles. Assault-kit stormtroopers are just as annoying because they can insta-kill shurikens which are not behind energy shields through a point-blank grenade + one burst of their hotshot lasguns.
T3 is simple - Fire prisms. Just spam prisms + shurikens and keep at least one ranger squad alive. That combination makes it impossible for the IG to do anything. Keep building energy shields for your shurikens so that the burst damage of lemans/stormtroopers/kasrkin is negated and just wait for the VPs to trickle down. Buy time field for your farseer and combine it with wraithguard + the fire prism to massacre both infantry and vehicle. You could even combine time field + an eldritch storm if you have the red, it's a very good way to deal with lemans or even baneblades, although getting a baneblade vs eldar is foolish due to wraithguard, especially vs the farseer since she can guide them/heal them :O Remember YOU ALWAYS NEED RANGERS, you do not want to be caught unaware of a YOLO-leman flanking your prism from the side and taking it out in 2shots, nor do you want to unaware of infiltrated melta-stormtroopers which insta-kill prisms. Besides, prisms have terrible sight range but fantastic actual range. Rangers have great sight range and can infiltrate so they can get really close to the enemy without losing models. The pair synergises amazingly.
On smaller maps I would recommend going for 2 avengers, shuriken, rangers, shuriken instead. T2/T3 is the same as big maps though.
Regarding positioning/map prioritisation and the actual question of how to deal with sentinels:
In T1 as an eldar you must play extremely defensive. It is only in T2 that you start to push against the IG. Don't cap expansively; stick to capping points closest to your base early on and don't worry too much about VPs, prioritise req instead. Blob up your dire avengers a lot (always have two together), if you ever send a unit to cap on their own the farseer does well in the very early game when you have no power units out, but once your ranger/shuriken hit the field cap with one avenger that you don't upgrade in T1 the use the farseer's sight range + guide +rangers to really pressure those sentinels. If the IG is blobbing up his army to repair something like double sentinels slowly approach by setting up energy shields just out of the range of gunfire then place a shuriken behind it and guide it to suppress the guardsmen then fleet in your farseer while moving forward your avengers AND your shuriken (at this point the shuriken should be prioritising their hero so it cannot tie the shuriken up have rangers nearby so you have the sight range to be aware of flanks, if there is no hero nearby focus down the guardsmen), your two avengers should focus fire guardsmen squads, one at a time don't split your fire between two squads, meanwhile the rangers should be taking constant shots at the sentinels and being positioned behind the avengers and to the side of the shuriken so they lose no models yet can spot flanks.
Deal with their hero with your shuriken guided or otherwise. In T1 the farseer makes a great capping unit as she can easily solo anything other than the LC/IQ/catachans that she will meet capping.
Only buy upgrades once all your other squads are out. Then prioritise getting two battle equipment upgrades for mainly the shields+extra hp but the grenades are nice too on suppressed squads/retreating catachans (lol). Then if you feel you have had the better end of map control and not bled too much get spirit stones for your farseer and remember not to always use guide/fleet at the start of each engagement when you have spirit stones in T1. Instead wait for your units to lose hp but not models then pop spirit stones + guide so that you always have enough energy to use it!
Then when you start to go T2 while you are in the middle of upgrading to it you should buy the pathfinder upgrade for your rangers and the final battle equipment on your capping avenger, also get doombringer on the farseer then once you hit T2 buy the power cheap (good job after spending all that power while teching right? Isn't it like eldar were designed to slaughter IG?) wraithguard. If you time all this right there will be no delay when you hit T2 to when you buy WG and you will gain a colossal spike in combat-prowess once you hit T2 and they come out. Remember the farseer can provide wriathsight to your wraithguard so bring her back to your base to escort them to the frontlines (or use webway gates to move them to the frontlines instantly, which you can them combine with guide+the infiltration of the farseer webway gate to wipe the sentinels instantly with infiltrated wraithguard+Ranger shots), while you meanwhile buy the 3 exarchs on your avengers, get the exarchs on the squad which has the most exp first and the squad with least exp last. At this point with 3 fully upgraded avengers, infiltrated rangers, a shuriken, wraithguard and doom you can just blob-push their generators/sentinels to wipe them out very quickly with wraithguard. Be wary of the IG running away and trying to counter-bash in this time, you can send your avengers+Farseer back to deal with this and have them waiting by your gen farm with energy shields up so the IG simply cannot push against you while on the other side of the map wraithguard are bashing the gens while a shuriken covers them from being tied up and rangers protect both from infiltrated stormtroopers/heroes/ogryns.
The key thing to note then? In T1 you play defensive, in T2 you play offensive.
Tips/tricks for beating IG as eldar in general:
Blob your dire avengers a lot in T1 then in T2 use them as capping units, keeping 1 with your main force to put down energy shields/repair.
Remember to use attack ground with the wraithguard; it an force off ogryns instantly if used properly.
Always think about sight range. The farseer is the best hero vs IG because of her natural sight range combined with the farseer global, guide, doom, spirit stones, psychic storm AND the infiltration her gate offers. Remember you can guide vehicles such as fire prisms to give them amazing range and combine this with farsight/ranger's sight range/the farseers sight range to kill the IG from distances where he can do nothing except suck up the losses.
Don't take engagements unless you have to. This should be a general rule for eldar but applies mostly to the IG/eldar MU. IG win not through map control but by bleeding their foes far more than themselves. If you stall the IG army with your main force using shurikens/energy shields while capping the map with your extra avenger/farseer you will get to T2 first. If you get to T2 first you will get to T3 first. If you get out a prism when the IG lacks a leman russ the only thing they have to kill it is a lucky manticore shot (which would require terrible micro on your behalf), melta storms/infiltrated ogryns/las-hwts via the inquisitor (but you have rangers anyway) or sentinels (but you have wraithguard+guidable shurikens/avengers/falcons/rangers and the doom ability the sentinels will die instantly).
Utilise the farseer's innate wraithsight so you don't waste resources on the warlock for the wraithguard who only ends up dying all the time and stunning the rest of the squad anyway.
P.S if you play team-games then the answer is far far far far far more simple. Simply request that your allies send a ranged squad down into your lane for the first two engagements. If they can't micro in two lanes this early on in the game then they suck ass and your team deserves to lose. Meanwhile you play defensively and fend off the IG with 2 avengers and your allies ranged squad + your farseer. Then you build a shuriken and use that defensively to halt the sentinel pushes vs your avengers, at this point your ally can take his squad back to his lane. Then you buy 2 rangers as rangers are OP in team games and use them to harrass the sentinel/go to the other lanes and snipe enemy set-up teams. Upgrade your avengers then and spam energy shields all over your lane so the IG cannot push against you.
Go T2 get double wraithguard and go push back the IG, follow it up with banshees. At this point you may as well send 1 WG + banshees to a different lane to make that lane practically unbeatable, meanwhile the IG cries simply at trying to defeat 1 WG + shuriken + 2 avengers and a farseer.
Get T3 and spam prisms unless you are vs a force commander/kommando knob in which case get an avatar. Send everything into the VP lane.
Last edited by Torpid on Sun 07 Dec, 2014 3:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
Re: Sentinels.
if you know you're vs IG, then going triple Dire avengers is much better than getting a banshee squad out of the gate. banshees dont do much vs IG because of that stop and catachans. so if you know for sure that you're vs IG, get triple dire avengers out of the gate and buy them all their aspects nie and early. this way you can sit in cover and shread the GM squads and then once they're forced off shread the sent. that's what i would do.
dont take my word for it though, im rubbish at eldar.
dont take my word for it though, im rubbish at eldar.
My Twitch where i occasionally stream myself pwning/getting pwned on elite mod, i seem to bounce between the two on a game to game basis. - http://www.Twitch.tv/Venkitsune
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BaptismByLoli
- Posts: 830
- Joined: Fri 28 Feb, 2014 8:20 am
- Location: The Place Where Wishes Come True
Re: Sentinels.
If you buy all three DA aspects off the gate, then Spotters, Catachans or HWT are gonna ruin your day since they counter ranged stuff one way or another.
40 power spent on getting the same upgrade thrice rather than counters or a new unit is generally a bad idea as well.
Against Sents, shury or rangers are better at forcing them off.
40 power spent on getting the same upgrade thrice rather than counters or a new unit is generally a bad idea as well.
Against Sents, shury or rangers are better at forcing them off.
Re: Sentinels.
If you open 3xda you should have your shuri or rangers out by the time your enemy gets his t1,5 unit
#noobcodex
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Atlas
Re: Sentinels.
Torpid's post has really hammered in how stacked towards Eldar this MU is. I mean, I knew. I live it 
But my only salvation so far has been my opponent not getting rangers. Now I'm totally screwed way to go Torpid.
But my only salvation so far has been my opponent not getting rangers. Now I'm totally screwed way to go Torpid.-
IdranelLives
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun 07 Dec, 2014 1:48 pm
Re: Sentinels.
Many words, much wisdom.
Thanks all.
Thanks all.
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Atlas
Re: Sentinels.
As a side note, if IG goes for a fast manticore (and with shurikens and wraithguard that's a possibility) you might want to consider the Singing Spear instead of the Doombringer. Either one will work really since the Manticore is made out of paper but it's a lot cheaper than a Warp Spider squad and you can keep your suppression on the shuriken.
The larger sight range of the Farseer + Fleet + Infiltration out of gate should be enough for you to hunt it down and destroy the Manticore, making an already bad situation for the IG even worse.
The larger sight range of the Farseer + Fleet + Infiltration out of gate should be enough for you to hunt it down and destroy the Manticore, making an already bad situation for the IG even worse.
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BaptismByLoli
- Posts: 830
- Joined: Fri 28 Feb, 2014 8:20 am
- Location: The Place Where Wishes Come True
Re: Sentinels.
Nurland wrote:If you open 3xda you should have your shuri or rangers out by the time your enemy gets his t1,5 unit
I was assuming if he went ahead and made 3 Dire Aspect purchases in a row rather than getting rangers or shury's in between.
Re: Sentinels.
Aah. Now it makes sence. Missed Ven's post sbout early aspects. Early shurikens and rangers are most definitely better than aspects in almost every scenario.
#noobcodex
Re: Sentinels.
You mentioned Farseer vs sentinel problems. One easy way to deal with that two legged issue is Doombringer. You want to tank with your sentinel ? How about your sentinel suddenly has 30% less health ?
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