Might be a stupid question but...

[Ven]

How on earth do you counter 3/4 autocannon havocs?

so this is the game im referring to

https://www.dropbox.com/s/63y8c3rc1tva5 ... s.rec?dl=0

this guy got like 3 or 4 autocannon havocs, which resulted in my raptors/bloodletters being shreaded before they were even in jump range. to make matters worse he put on in a building. how exactly would i counter that? 4x raptors or 4x bloodletters? because it just seemed whatever i did my counters got shredded before they even got in range. if they did get on the havocs, then his double tzzetch marines would melt me aswell.

[Nurland]

Can't DL and watch the rep right now. What hero did you play as and against what hero?

[Ven]

Can't DL and watch the rep right now. What hero did you play as and against what hero?

Chaos Lord Vs Chaos Lord

he went double CSM whilst i went double tics one CSM. i even wiped his tics in the first engagement.

their team had a tech advantage so he got to T2 before me, and also had the resources to pimp his CL where as i did not. it might have been the result of being outplayed or my teammates being outplayed, i cant be sure. im looking thought the replay myself right now.

[Nurland]

Anyway I would either go for artillery spam (2x blastmaster) or a melee flank and attack from the "front" when the enemy is repositioning.

As CL, malignant blindness and worship are your friends and the rest of his globals also really help in wiping the havocs. 2x Letters wipe set ups scary fast. Esp. with blindness or bloodlust.

[Nurland]

If he has the baseball bat and is positioned well it can be tough but I would try to kill the havocs one by one.

[Torpid]

Not watched the replay but I highly doubt this is a 1v1 issue ^^

3v3 often results in problems vs set-up teams spams or sniper spams.

Set-up teams though unlike snipers are very immobile and fairly fragile (Although havocs/devs now get that melee resistance). I would recommend doubling them with your allies to wipe them. Snipers are a good alternative but of course as chaos you don't have access to them and so I would recommend a combination of 2 TCSM+blastmasters and BLs, maybe throw in a BC too to skew their composition and instantly get rid of one havoc then you can send it elsewhere into a different lane on the map to cause disorder there.

Vs sniper spams you could try the doubling thing but you are highly unlikely to kill the snipers and you will probably lose more than you will kill in doubling it and that's pretty much why snipers are OP in team games.

[Ven]

Not watched the replay but I highly doubt this is a 1v1 issue ^^

3v3 often results in problems vs set-up teams spams or sniper spams.

Set-up teams though unlike snipers are very immobile and fairly fragile (Although havocs/devs now get that melee resistance). I would recommend doubling them with your allies to wipe them. Snipers are a good alternative but of course as chaos you don't have access to them and so I would recommend a combination of 2 TCSM+blastmasters and BLs, maybe throw in a BC too to skew their composition and instantly get rid of one havoc then you can send it elsewhere into a different lane on the map to cause disorder there.

Vs sniper spams you could try the doubling thing but you are highly unlikely to kill the snipers and you will probably lose more than you will kill in doubling it and that's pretty much why snipers are OP in team games.

yea it was a 3v3.

in the end we managed to wipe one of the havocs by doubling my lane, but there was jack and squat i could do by myself. i didn't deem flanking safe as the mid players were fighting on the mid, and i needed to go through the mid to flank (Argus desert gate). havocs now with their melee resist barely got tickled by my raptors/bloodletter combo. and if i did by some mirracle force them off the havoc in the building that at the time i had no counter for other than GL tics and double Tzzetch marines would of chewed through my whole army, and im force to retreat.
due to the ammount of bleed i didn't have enough for a blastmaster noise marines; but before my teammate decided the help he had already pushed my lanes power many times over due to me being forced off, so maybe it was a combination of stupid havoc melee resist, not having an anti-garison weapon and me and my teamates being outplayed. i can't be sure.

[Torpid]

By the way, don't go raptors in a chaos mirror. I would recommend, as the CL, combi-bolter alongside 2 csm, normal tics (upgrade to GLs/AC depending on what you are fighting - havocs/raptors respectively), havoc + nm.

Use your havoc to suppress his at the front and split up your csm + gl tics + cl to shoot it down, if there are two you suppress one with your havoc and move in on it with the CL while nm move onto the other, sure they might get caught and focus fired but then you redirect your havoc fire onto their other havoc...

If they start going for 3 or 4 havocs in T1 you have to adapt to deal with it. Play defensively around your havoc and don't push against their set-up team spam, send your nm off into another lane; they serve as a massive force multiplier due to their high splash damage and good combat prowess vs everything in T1. Stall till you can get your blastmaster + LTGB on your CL then whip out a BC while upgrading your csm to 2 TCSM, then get BLs/PMs depending on what they get (lots of anti-infantry infantry or a dreadnought). Ideally you don't really want to get any additional AV to kill a BC other than your own BC so that's a job for your teammates.

You can get the baseball bat or lightning claws in T2 but honestly I think the lightning claws/icon of khorne combo is better in this MU. As good as the baseball bat is for counter-initiation I think a lot of people fail to acknowledge how brilliant the lightning claw's are too with that destructive strike. DS only does slightly less damage than sweeping doom but it still saves your set-up teams due to the knockback while allowing the CL to follow up with some more claws since the knockback isn't quite as extreme as sweeping doom's. Then, with icon of khorne+claws you can do some tanky business vs the inevitable double TCSM you will need to fight. I generally prefer to get claws+khorne when I only need to counter-initiate vs weaker melee squads, i.e. anything less durable than ogryns. The baseball bat is often a better choice vs eldar/orks though because it swings slower meaning you do more damage per hit which means higher dps vs moving targets which means more models killed. Vs niddies/sm/chaos the power melee is really nice to have though.

[Ven]

thats the thing though, i wiped his tics in the first engagement and he never replaced them, so if it wasnt for those 2x Tzzetch marines they'd be relatively unopposed.

i couldn't play defensively as he had the VP, and i never even had the resources for noise marines. i wanted them to counter the garrison but by the time i got them out it would of been too late. bloodcrusher would have melted to the ammount of autocannons. due to my heavy T1 with havocs, raptors, 2 tics and CSM i knew that a BC would come on to the field too late, especially if he got autocannons, which he did. maybe if i was fast enough and got a BC out to force him to get a lascannon i might have had a much better time, but triple autocannons just completely melt anything i could throw at them.