Newb question

[Taraknis]

Why were heretics nerfed so much? :O And the patch for 2.5 says they'll get even weaker

[Adeptus Noobus]

Why were heretics nerfed so much? :O And the patch for 2.5 says they'll get even weaker

What do you mean by nerfed so much? Heretics are a good unit.
They might get weaker in 2.5 but they also get cheaper (210 down to 190 req). The community is not clear on how that will work out in the end but it is mainly considered a buff for Chaos. No power T1s are a big possibility now, which is really scary because Blood Crushers are very cheap and you can bring them out even faster. And yes, all this comes from reducing the cost of Heretics.

[Taraknis]

Chaos Heretics

Reduced cost from 260 to 210
Reduced Aspiring Champion ranged dps from 12.8 to 3.65
Grenade Launchers damage decreased from 45 to 40
Grenade Launchers autogun damage increased from 8 to 12
Worship Toggle cooldown reduced from 3 to 2 seconds
Decreased Health on Heretics from 640 to 600
Aspiring Champion health bonus increased from 15% to 20%
Aspiring Champion cost decreased from 95/30 to 90/25
Aspiring Champion upkeep decreased from 12.8 to 10.8
Nurgle Worship health regeneration bonus decreased from 0.5 to 0.35
Global Resource gained from killing Heretics increased from 3 to 4

those are the ORIGINAL changelog, and now the last patch will further lower their dps?

[Cyris]

This would be them after the next patch, and including 2.4 (first three lines are changed)

Reduced cost from 260 to 190 (was 210)
Reduced melee damage from 24 to 20
Chaos Heretics experience increased from 42 to 50

Reduced Aspiring Champion ranged dps from 12.8 to 3.65
Grenade Launchers damage decreased from 45 to 40
Grenade Launchers autogun damage increased from 8 to 12
Worship Toggle cooldown reduced from 3 to 2 seconds
Decreased Health on Heretics from 640 to 600
Aspiring Champion health bonus increased from 15% to 20%
Aspiring Champion cost decreased from 95/30 to 90/25
Aspiring Champion upkeep decreased from 12.8 to 10.8
Nurgle Worship health regeneration bonus decreased from 0.5 to 0.35
Global Resource gained from killing Heretics increased from 3 to 4

I don't think I'd be comfortable calling tics nerfed OR buffed between retail and elite. They are differently good. I call this "burfed" (nerfed + buffed). Generally, I think of ELITE tics as weaker but cheaper, which I think suits their support role as the game progresses.

[Adeptus Noobus]

They may have gotten dmg decreases but this reads out like a good buff to the Chaos economy which in turn benefits your entire gameplay. Don't look at only heretics but look at the broader picture. Yes heretics may have gotten weaker but they also got cheaper for that matter. This also means, that you can repurchase them easier, if they died. Reinforcment cost should also be lower, meaning you don't bleed so much from Tic model losses. Think of this units role in the army composition and that armies economy and then judge again. The nerf to their dmg makes them easier to handle, sure, but I am more afraid of Chaos fast-teching all the time now. Are heretics any less potent with their reduced dmg? No. They still open up engagements well, suppress, and their main utility is still their worship.

[Taraknis]

They are less potent for mele eengages, which leaves you more vulnerable to raptor jumps, fast tech is tougher with weaker anti-melee; sure it's better for their worshipping role yes, but not so much for the "defend my havocs" role

[Adeptus Noobus]

They are less potent for mele eengages, which leaves you more vulnerable to raptor jumps, fast tech is tougher with weaker anti-melee; sure it's better for their worshipping role yes, but not so much for the "defend my havocs" role

Havocs have melee resistance. They do not need more protection than that. Melee resistance on Havocs + AC-Heretics was a thorn in many peoples eyes. The rest of the Chaos T1 roster retains their high damage, so it should all be good.
Lowering the cost of heretics gives you so much more than pure damage output. Just think of all the abilities you can now use that require less req to compensate. Consume and Blood Sacrifice comes to mind.

[Toilailee]

It comes down to making them less effective in the very early game but stay useful and more economically viable through the game for worship support etc.

[Adeptus Noobus]

It comes down to making them less effective in the very early game but stay useful and more economically viable through the game for worship support etc.

The TL;DR version of what I was saying. Leave it to Toilailee

[Forestradio]

well something that hasn't been mentioned is that this makes 2 tics a lot weaker in the early game, you'll have to blob them up with csm+hero in order to apply pressure instead of solo capping probably

BUT it also allows like 4-5 tic builds (esp as cl) and thus you skip t1 and go straight into a massive horde of demons with worship, so basically your opponent either spams anti melee like a mofo (which still may not work) and gets outteched, or doesn't and gets bashed a lot and still outteched

probably the best solution to that is to upgrade the hero with some hp regen/cc wargear and hope the map you are on has garrisons, but not every hero is capable of that, and not every map has garrisons

this kind of mass tic into mass demons is also boring as fuck to play, boring as fuck to fight against, and promotes stupidly toxic gameplay

[Ace of Swords]

It comes down to making them less effective in the very early game but stay useful and more economically viable through the game for worship support etc.

That would be the case if the 210 tics were over performing in early game and under performing in the late and as of now, neither is the case.

[Caeltos]

It's as Toilailee said, but I would phrase it differently.

The intended unit role will function more as a deterrent, rather than a counter vs certain units. Hench why their melee damage has seen a reduction. Spefically in certain matchups now, you'll able to trade more effectively even with your ranged units. (Beefier units will have an advantage in this scenario).

However, taken this into consideration, it's important to note the broad changes we're making as well, and not dwell too far into a specific change. For an ex. Dire Avengers are a getting a 30 req cost cut, ontop of making misc. changes that opens up soft-av counterplay so even if you're falling behind in certain matchups, you'll have more accessible light-av damage against said, Bloodcrusher/Transports.

That change is not noted in the 2.5 balance changelog, it's something we're still making sure doesn't go absolutely insane - because we've already encountered some ... well, gamebreaking issues that we just resolved yesterday.

Another change we're introducing is some heavy cover changes, which will have some (hopefully) huge changes to some supression-play. (Which is based on distance) so the idea is to reward careful, tactical play. Positioning becomes more important as a result.

It's important to note that, the option to go for 3x Heretic start to T2 into Daemons should be a viable(albeit situational) strategy. But it should never become a staple- to-go strategy in certain matchups every time. Variety is important, and player preference is also essential. There should however be means to counterplay the things you come against.

We've seen alot of interactions with how some changes change things up. However, as far as with Chaos Space Marines goes - it's a pretty problematic. Since Heretics are such a staple and dependant unit for the Chaos roster to fully function, as a result - the Chaos Space Marine economy often falters if the heretic bleed becomes to heavily. They're a faction that has a low quantity models, coupled with a singular-squad with high-model count, which results in high-bleed effiency.

It's important to note, that it's also pretty important nowadays anyways that you want at least 2 heretics (Altho, again - in situations, it's not a mandatory requirement) which again accelerates the pressure, but at the same time - has the potential to accelerate the economical bleed on the Chaos Space Marines.

So again, the changelog is to reflect changes in how that interaction is going to work in the upcoming patch. Tune down the pressure-potential in exchange to ease down the economical damage and allow the Chaos Space Marines some ease on the requisition bleed. Again - it's important to note that there's alot of changes coming in 2.5, and what you've seen in the 2.5 thread, is not the final version we're releasing. Once we've finalized it, and shipped it to a bigger playerbase for extensive testing to make sure it's ready for public use) then you'll all get to see what's in it.

[Atlas]

I'm dying to see the sekret notes! Pleasssseeeeee.

But alright, cool. Always great to have you weigh on in these discussions Caeltos! Hope things are going well for you and for our techies that make this happen.

[Forestradio]

It's important to note that, the option to go for 3x Heretic start to T2 into Daemons should be a viable(albeit situational) strategy. But it should never become a staple- to-go strategy in certain matchups every time. Variety is important, and player preference is also essential. There should however be means to counterplay the things you come against.

ye the option should still be there, but imo with these changes it will become the main strategy, since you'll want mass quantity heretics (which u can now afford) instead of csm+2 tics so you can deal with melee easier and keep map control

also with bc price cuts and lolcharge wiping everything on retreat, as well as the pop reduction bls got not too long ago, it keeps the economy afloat pretty well in t2, through less upkeep and wiping enemy units

unless there are some significant changes to other chaos t1 stuff or chaos t2 demons i don't think that mass tic into mass demons is going to be any less viable then 2 tic csm, and maybe even moreso against some heroes

but we'll see what happens i suppose

[Taraknis]

Sort of feels like you're changing the game into a less melee-focused thing and more of a range-based combat with these changes, khorne marked csm won't fare so well now either, it's gotta be jump/warp units only

[Black Relic]

Well, melee combat should a high risk thing to begin with. No matter who you are facing you want to get ride of those melee squads because they do more than just attack a targeted squad. But they disrupt your lines making your range squad have to fight in melee and gives you a huge disadvantage.

Heretic already have an easy time in melee combat atm thanks to proper use of their doom blast.

Even though these changes are indeed a nerf to the unit it self it serves as a buff to the chaos roster. Easy heretic replacement, less req bleed. Now supporting your army will be a bit easier. It saves their eco some trouble it can have in t1 since 3 heretic aren't that great in 1v1 imo because of the bleed. This allows you as the player to save some req to get something else that you could need. However you could possibly be spoon feeding XP to your enemies units.

I will say i didn't think these changes that are set to happen would come around. I thought doom blast would get a "nerf" to it. As in it would give XP to enemy units caught in the doom blast. But i was obviously wrong lol.

[egewithin]

Sort of feels like you're changing the game into a less melee-focused thing and more of a range-based combat with these changes, khorne marked csm won't fare so well now either, it's gotta be jump/warp units only

You worry too much. If the new changes breaks balance unexpectedly, there will be a 2.5.1 or a 2.5.2 patch.

Also, I think you are focusing on 3v3 mathces where KCSM are not so suggested. In a 1v1 or a 2v2 match, they are awsome. All Khonre themed units are awsome in 1v1 and 2v2. And I can't image the t2 rush potencial given by the new tic costs.