Brother Captain Rework?

[Black Relic]

Before i get started I personally think the Brother Captain lacks luster and now that Garrick has blessed us awhile back a possibility for heroes for GK/OM leave the BC open for a chance of rework/redesign. But this being only part of my reason for this thread.

Ok so in my mod (which heads up to people ahead of time the upkeep is fucked and I am currently fixing it so if you want to play OP as shit GK go for it before it goes away) I added the Inquisitor (literal copy and paste of the unit with the exception of her abilities) as a Grey Knight hero. Thanks to Garrick's Hero Selection menu greatness.

In short the BC never really had a set design imo he was in my eyes meant to be able to do a little of everything some support, disruptive, offensive etc. So he really never stood out to me and he was just really boring in some way. Although I will admit blessed aegis and unending purge with any melee weapon is pretty cool although impractical.

I want to use this discussion as a way to brainstorm on how rework the BC so he has a place as an interesting hero. Now I don't mean that all of his current wargears will have to go since atm I think his weapon some options should stay the same (although how i feel about the hammer. I feel it lacks luster and is a bad knock off the Chaos Lord's Daemon Maul). And Blessed Aegis is definitely staying as well as unending purge since those imo stand out over everything else and actually makes him seem different than other heroes.

Since I am still trying to figure out what i would want him to be But I think I have settled on a Tanky Supportive commander that has the capacity to disrupt.

Leaving the Nemesis Force Sword the same.

Nemesis Force Halberd, removing the splash damage and adding the Ward ability. Ward damage resistance removed. Knockback immunity removed so ability kb works. Targeted unit is gives 250 additional energy. Any attack taken from any source drains energy instead (one energy absorbs 2 damage and any range attack have a harder time hitting the target). When Casted on a unit that unit break suppression (can be instantly suppressed right after though.

The Nemesis Warding Staff. Removing the Ward ability and adding the Nemesis Vortex ability. Nemesis Vortex slow goes down from 30% to 20%. Range reduced to 20 from 30.

Nemesis Daemon Hammer (honestly i don't like this weapon). ATM i will try to accommodate keeping it as an option. Damage Lowered from 150 damage per hit to 100, but Demolishing strike is removed. The Avenger ability replaces it. Unleash a large energy blast around the Brother Captain (think if the Armor of Undeath from the Sorcerer in last stand, yea that animator action what he is about to die(not). The Blast will do 40 psychic damage, knockback and stuns affected enemies for 2 seconds. Energy cost 100, Cooldown 80 seconds.
Adds another ability (I have no name for it atm maybe My Foe Will Fall?) Knocks Back a single target a large distance away from the Brother Captain doing 150 melee damage to that target. Both cannot be used at the same time due to energy cost for both. Passively Knockback enemy units in melee combat. Energy Cost 40 Cooldown 40 seconds.

Mantle of Terra changed a bit. Health increase lowered from 200 to 100. Increases the Brother Captains energy by 100. Energy regen lowered from 1.5 to 1. Canticle of Absolution stays the same. Passively every time he uses an ability his ability cooldown recovery rate improves by 1.5. Stacks 4 times. Buff lasts for 5 seconds each buff does not reset each other.

Blessed Aegis stays the same.

Nemesis Vortex removed.

Holy Armor of Titan. Health increase stays the same. It reducing ability cooldowns removed. Instead it improves ability potency by reducing energy cost by 20% and increasing damage or effect. Base We Are The Hammer now affects the Brother Captain. Improved We Are The Hammer as increases damage by 10%. When the Nemesis vortex is spawned enemies within a 12 radius are drawn toward the center of the spawn point. Ward damage absorption increases from 1 energy equals 2 damage to 1 energy equals 3 damage (and further reduces recieved accuracy on the targeted squad). Avenger causes ability knockback. That Knockback ability (My Foe Will Fall?) also does 5% of the target health as additional damage. His invul can stay the same. Psychic lash pulls also pulls all enemy units within a 5 radius of the target (they are not damaged).

The Unending Purge has a little change. The Health regen is split up. at all times he has an increased 0.5 hp per second. When he gets below 50% HP it increase to 4.5 hp per second. When his energy goes below 30% he steals energy from enemy units and gives it to himself.

Purified Blades has a little change. Adds a 5 piercing splash. Any kill with this upgrade inspires allied units (same as Space Marine Terminators). Abilities used increase Brother Captain's damage for 15 seconds. 5% and stacks up to 3 times.

Psychic Lash reduced the damage from 170 to 50. Lowered cost from 100/35 to 100/20. Range stays 30 but cooldown reduced to 40 from 60. Knockback distance reduced from 30 to 20.


My goal here was to try and create a Commander that can support pushes by either buffing his units or by controlling the enemy. He still will have ways of damaging the enemy but it will be helping his army do it or him from using abilities. If he get in enemy line he will be able to cause havoc. His ability to support his army and the possibility of himself as well i think is what makes him a bit different than the rest. Makes him micro intensive and his wargears a bit more niche but offers imo more flexibility, options an a variety of different builds to fiddle with.

I know its far from perfect, possibly over shadows the Inquisitor and has some OP parts I am sure but what are your thoughts? Or just give me what you think the Brother Captain should be unless you think is is fine.

Cheers.

[Cyris]

Sure, I'll bite. Ignoring the context of what your mod has, I'll just focus this on ELITE balance. Focus as a Tank Support I 100% agree on. Let's get into the weeds...

Nemesis Force Halberd:
Losing splash is fine.
The Energy Shield ability should be on the Warding Staff, put the Vortex here instead.
Breaking suppression but not giving knockback immunity is confusing when you have the narrative of an energy shield. All but 1 in the game give KB immunity.
I appreciate adding an energy shield on a faction with Purification.

Warding staff:
Nerfs to Vortex go against your stated goal, and the ability was pretty weak already (high micro requirement for mediocre payoff). If anything, remove or reduce the damage and enhance the slow aspect to focus it as crowd control, not spike damage.
Also, it's a warding Staff, so leave it with the Ward ability and put Vortex on the sword.

Nemesis Daemon Hammer:
Avenger reads as the same ability that it is replacing.
Reduced attack damage for a unit targeted knockback seems reasonable and good. Prolly should deal less damage? Also leaves room for Purification on the BC to allow both abilities to be used. Cool.
Passive Knock back worries me a lot more. Too many mods on this weapon now, proc chances suck and chain knockback is dangerous.

Mantle of Terra:
Can't understand what this does. Effect seems overly complicated.
Canticle is incredibly weak. Minor payoff on most ability combos (rarely can use anything more then once per fight) and is out of place in T1 with the low number of active abilities. Functions much better in T2.

Blessed Agies:
No changes? Agies is a T1 armor in T2, it badly need to go back to T1 or become substantially different in T2.

Holy Armor of Titan:
Too complicated!

Unending Purge:
I like giving a small baseline regen.
Energy burn is nice to see again.

Purified Blades:
Adding inspiration on kill is very interesting.
Stacking buffs is too complicated.
Unsure what you are saying this does overall. It already had a splash, are you increasing it? Does it still have the KB? This upgrade is in need of substantial changes. Does splash damage trigger inspiration? Do bolter kills?

Psychic Lash:
Cheaper and lower damage is ok, but lowering cooldown also might go too far. Spamming this will be too strong, even with reduced damage and KB range. Pulling leaders out of position is already super strong.


Overall:
Mostly feels like rearranging existing buffs, and less giving BC more Support tools. I appreciate the removal of Splash and Hammer damage, but don't feel like he's ending as a tank or a support.
Current woes with the BC include his susceptibility to melee, lack of T1 support upgrades (Force Sword enhances an existing ability, and Canticle is worthless) and inability to tank after T1, all compounded by his low speed.
Breaking apart BC's ability to tank, deal damage, and buff allies into more mutually exclusive upgrade paths makes a lot of sense.

[Black Relic]

Yea i don't intend for this discussion to be only for the sake of my mod. It's mainly to throw some ideas around to and try and find a actual spot for the Brother Captain that makes him unique since there is a possibility of new OM heroes and he cannot be a jack of all trades commander any more.

Nemesis Force Halberd:
Losing splash is fine.
The Energy Shield ability should be on the Warding Staff, put the Vortex here instead.
Breaking suppression but not giving knockback immunity is confusing when you have the narrative of an energy shield. All but 1 in the game give KB immunity.

Makes sense to keep the Ward on the Warding Staff due to name.

I didn't really word that well. The Ward ability defends against most knockback types except ability knockback.

Warding staff:
Nerfs to Vortex go against your stated goal, and the ability was pretty weak already (high micro requirement for mediocre payoff). If anything, remove or reduce the damage and enhance the slow aspect to focus it as crowd control, not spike damage.
Also, it's a warding Staff, so leave it with the Ward ability and put Vortex on the sword.

Well i think a big blob of blue death slowing going towards an enemy can cause them to dislodge and back up. If this ability is used after a melee squad gets into combat it can move the enemies supportive fire back isolating the enemy melee squad. Or They can just take the damage. Since the ability is one a weapon (especially the halberd which even without the splash damage still has a decent amount of power melee damage) I feel the nerfs are justified. He can use the vortex on himself to force melee squads trying to engage him back off. Or as i mentioned before make range blobs backup or reposition which can isolate already committed melee squads. I can see maybe the slow being a bit much of a nerf by the range 20 i think allows a player to react rather than then nearly immediately losing a fight without a transport due to the vortex nearly spawning in their back lines. Nids will have such a hard time if the range isn't reduced.

Nemesis Daemon Hammer:
Avenger reads as the same ability that it is replacing.
Reduced attack damage for a unit targeted knockback seems reasonable and good. Prolly should deal less damage? Also leaves room for Purification on the BC to allow both abilities to be used. Cool.
Passive Knock back worries me a lot more. Too many mods on this weapon now, proc chances suck and chain knockback is dangerous.

Ye the Avenger is but fits the Brother Captain being a Psyker and allows allows the BC to show his strength. But to be completely honest I would remove the hammer tbh. I just don't like it personally.

But as for the targeted Knockback the damage i put is the same amount of damage the Hammer deals right now per strike. So it sounded reasonable to me at the time. But as you mentioned later in your post the Brother Captain struggles heavily vs melee. And honestly that weakness should stay. He is a tank and in my rework he is meant to help a push and at the same time buff himself. For his to deal with his given counters should come at a cost. And that in this weapon upgrade which counters the upgrades helps do so in two way that are pretty different imo.

One helps snipe a leader unit or gets the dangerous nob away so the BC can bleed a few models before leaving and this does so at a lower energy cost. The ability helps with skirmishing with a capping squad. Being able to beat banshees by knocking away their exarch sp the damage as a squad is reduced.

The Other stops melee rushes and protects your army at a huge energy cost which makes the BC have a hard time using any other abilities during that engagement. This can be used to stun terminators that want to be aggressive. It still does a lot of damage and i was skeptical in putting that much damage because I initially put 20.It is practically the same as the ability atm ye and i would be upset to see hate on it since i hate it myself since it counters melee so well.

As for the passive knockback. Yea get rid of it. I put it there so I could get a response tbh.

Mantle of Terra:
Can't understand what this does. Effect seems overly complicated.
Canticle is incredibly weak. Minor payoff on most ability combos (rarely can use anything more then once per fight) and is out of place in T1 with the low number of active abilities. Functions much better in T2.

That effect is pretty much want canticle of Absolution does but affects the Brother Captain. Making the spamming of abilities easier. The Canticle does sucks but it's ok imo with purifiers and Strike squad's snare. But it going to t2 would require the health to go back up to 200 and then I can agree with that. The change in questions allows him to buff allies even more and possibly himself depending on what weapon and accessory you purchased.

Blessed Aegis:
No changes? Aegis is a T1 armor in T2, it badly need to go back to T1 or become substantially different in T2.

Didn't really want to change it to t1. But if it does go then the health gain needs to go down by 50. I played Gom before with the Nemesis force sword, unending purge and then blessed aegis. He tanked a large amount of damage. It is almost like a Warboss with hard boy'z and spiky armor on him and he just finished charging with angry bitz. Although I do understand why you'd want ti in t1. Because in the game i mentioned before i also wanted to get it in t1 because then i would have been able to easily run into a devs supported by 2 tacs and shotgun scouts (although i will say i had ist gl supporting with disruption).

Holy Armor of Titan:
Too complicated!

I thought it made sense. The additions to his abilities allows him be better disruptive hero since it will fall off in t3. The Vortex won't be as relevant in t3 than in t2 even if it didn't receive any nerfs. But The vortex will now pull units (as in knock units) toward the center of the vortex so it will hit more reliably and knock back units again when the vortex goes off. Like an on demand singularity.

The base We Are The Hammer speed increase now affects him. Its small but since it's an ability he starts with i think it's totally fine and large enough buff.

The Improved We Are The Hammer might be more like improves health regen of the Brother Captain rather than a damage increase. Since that fits more into the Brother Captain being tanky but he is still being supportive of his army and buffing himself.

The Ward ability just absorbs more damage.

The Avenger Stuns a bit longer (the ability knockback is stupid i mentioned before was stupid)

The Targeted Knockback ability does additional damage to keep it relevant to t3 melee by doing an additional 10% of the targets health as damage.

Psychic lash pull models rather than one model. making comboing easier and the Brother Captain more dangerous to extreme blobbing of units (psychic lash into a nemesis vortex). Since that is like a small warp throw is wont do any damage to units that aren't the primary target of the psychic lash.

All in all i thought it was straight forward here. Although this is probably too powerful due to the armor also reducing the energy cost of abilities. Think i'd have to remove that.

As for the Invulnerability. The duration could go up to 10 or 12 seconds. Although requires damage to charge it.

Unending Purge:
I like giving a small baseline regen.
Energy burn is nice to see again.

Yea I wanted the Brother Captain who will rely on using abilities to have a way to gain it back. I was going to have it be like the the wargear works for HP but that didn't seem unique tbh and this way he can deal with eldar a bit.

Purified Blades:
Adding inspiration on kill is very interesting.
Stacking buffs is too complicated.
Unsure what you are saying this does overall. It already had a splash, are you increasing it? Does it still have the KB? This upgrade is in need of substantial changes. Does splash damage trigger inspiration? Do bolter kills?

Wanted a way for the Brother Captain to support his army. So I chose inspiration on kill. Can be used to help against suppression since the Terminator Inspiration reduces courage damage taken and increases damage.

Well the stacking buffs if what the force commander does and I was taking a note from that book and looking at this rework of the Brother Captain which is somewhat about using ability I tried to make something unique. Every time the Brother Captain uses an ability he does 15% (5% was too little) more damage which includes his side arm. The buff duration would probably have to go down to 12 or 10 seconds.

As for the Splash damage it is to help him against fragile t1 melee squads. Keep in mind that the flat damage increase from using abilities also affects this splash damage which honestly is too small imo but 5 seemed like a decent number to start with. I think increasing it to 10 or so would be needed.

Since Splash damage is apart of the melee weapon and if that melee weapon kills something (even if its the splash) I would say yea the splash will inspire.

As for the Storm Bolter I would say I don't want it to inspire but i think it inspiring would be either a bit too OP or just right so I think I would add that.

Psychic Lash:
Cheaper and lower damage is ok, but lowering cooldown also might go too far. Spamming this will be too strong, even with reduced damage and KB range. Pulling leaders out of position is already super strong.

Noted. So Cooldown shall persist in this rework than since i can see myself getting annoyed.

Overall:
Mostly feels like rearranging existing buffs, and less giving BC more Support tools. I appreciate the removal of Splash and Hammer damage, but don't feel like he's ending as a tank or a support.
Current woes with the BC include his susceptibility to melee, lack of T1 support upgrades (Force Sword enhances an existing ability, and Canticle is worthless) and inability to tank after T1, all compounded by his low speed.
Breaking apart BC's ability to tank, deal damage, and buff allies into more mutually exclusive upgrade paths makes a lot of sense.

Since I am typing my response it does seem like what i want from the Brother Captain is nothing from my original goal was. I think I want him to be an offensive support that has the capabilities to tank. But He relies on his abilities more so in this rework which also provides a weakness in he has to be upgraded to be amazing. I do see that being a problem there since in this rework each wargear is ok by itself but amazing when coupled with others making the BC a resource dumpster.

What i always wanted was the Canticle to increase the energy cost of enemy abilities and abilities that were used never started their cooldown until the duration of canticle was over or they moved out of area and energy was slowly drained from the enemy. I didn't put the rework of the ability in the OP since i thought the reworked BC was already strong enough.

I do think the BC being susceptible to melee in t1 moves him away from the Chaos Lord into his own hero. Now Again i think its ok for him to be able to deal with melee but at a cost.

I am curious what your BC would be Cyris. When you have the time post it up.