T3 Termas

[sk4zi]

so i just want to ask you ppl, what you think about the Leader Upgrade for termas in T3 ...

i agree that nids have not that good AV altough its better now with the Zoan´s skill doing good damage.

so its ok to give them some more AV in T3, but now its imho over the top. i feel like Nids dont need their dedicated AV in T3 anymore.
now that termas (and hormas) can purchase their own synapse warriors are not that important anymore.

so in my opinion the venom Cannon is too much. it should be either a Vanilla warrior or a barbed Strangler one. or just remove the snare ability. (ASM also loose it when they become their superior unit)
Having synapse is nice and fluffy.
but also plz notice that in the fluff the Warrior leader can be sniped out of the gaunts.

no problem with hormas thou.

[Torpid]

They're both really OP. The termagants do way too much damage, killing fire prisms in about 3 seconds and predators in about 5. That isn't even half of the issue though, the other half is that it makes the squad incredibly bulky and impossible to bleed while giving them fantastic damage. Although the hormagaunts aren't as good as AV, they do become blatantly OP with their melee leader. They can achieve over 3k hp under the right conditions, and generally hormagaunts without any warriors nearby having 2k hp is a bit much, plus I'm pretty sure the hormagaunt warrior gets the passive leap which really dooms one unit after all 10 horms dive on it. The leaders are too durable and the venom brood ones do too much damage to vehicles.

On another note the Doom of Malan'tai is still OP due to his stupid leech life ability which counters armies.

All this is testified for on replays I've uploaded to GR.

[Asmon]

They need tweaking indeed. First less hp, perhaps a little less damage, and I would make the upgrade exclusive with endless swarm so you have to choose which one you'd prefer.

[sk4zi]

yeah good point Asmon
Either more models or Leader would help vs the high HP.

also not more being affecetd by other synapse is a solution.

but less damage of the venom brood leader is also essential.

i would give them a Barbed Strangler instead of the Venom Cannon and remove their other snare coz they supress then.

[Asmon]

You cannot remove Crippling Poison that's Termagants' signature. Nobody would buy the upgrade, the ability is just too great.

A BS Warrior would likely be useless in T3.

[Panda]

This rings distinctly of the previous Eldar hate imo.

Often it is hard to use your default 1-dimensional strategies against Tyranids because they are less commonly played so people account for them less, hence people are not as adaptable to fighting them, hence complaints about them.

I am not saying Termagants are or are not op, but like many other things on this site it is harder to judge them as some of the better Tyranid mains (Floid, Fear, etc.) rarely write here, so comments appear to be from the perspective of those who don't know how to deal with them and would like an easy solution. Or at very least those who do not have significant experience with them.

I am inclined to say the unit itself is fine. I am not saying you guys are wrong (indeed of course I may be incorrect), but more time is needed to judge it before denouncing it as just OP. Especially since I do not think this is a clear-cut issue. So yes I am taking the other side in this debate.

The Tyranid economy can be very strong and may underpin some of your complaints.

[Torpid]

I'm by no means unfamiliar with the tyranids. I have a very powerful LA in 1v1. Just, watch this replay. The combination of the DOM and the Tank-hunter-termagants is pretty hard to counter and this isn't just possible in 2v2, I've done the same thing in 1v1, where I just get a TG in t2, harrass with it and tech to t3 and get a DOM + Terms with their leaders but I lack the replays because the games were too short...

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=287144

Furthermore I'm sick to death of the argument which goes like "I don't have a clue what I'm supposed to be doing in this scenario/match up, so you mustn't either", which can then be applied to any argument whatsoever to negate it. It's so damn ignorant since it assumes the subject has absolutely no knowledge about the game or how it works.

[Panda]

Furthermore I'm sick to death of the argument which goes like "I don't have a clue what I'm supposed to be doing in this scenario/match up, so you mustn't either", which can then be applied to any argument whatsoever to negate it. It's so damn ignorant since it assumes the subject has absolutely no knowledge about the game or how it works.

Excuse me are you referring to me? I hope not because I did not say that.

Secondly, just because you win with something does not make it op. Especially when you are playing against players who are your level. Considering the 500/90 cost of the DOM, adding it to an appropriate army should be hard to counter. Strong does not equate to overpowered.

I would however appreciate a replay of you where this is "really op" in 1v1.

[Torpid]

Alongside some subtlety and superfluous euphemisms, that's exactly what you said, whether or not it's what you implied.

And again, you act like I'm a retard. Do you really think I deem something as too strong because I win with it? Well guess what all races are OP then. Oh wait, I don't say that. -_-

It does too much for it's price and availability, that's how you judge something OP. How do you define what too much is? Basically if the counters are very hard to get, or in comparison to the unit/wargear extremely expensive.

[Ace of Swords]

They need tweaking indeed. First less hp, perhaps a little less damage, and I would make the upgrade exclusive with endless swarm so you have to choose which one you'd prefer.

I agree with this.

[Panda]

Alongside some subtlety and superfluous euphemisms, that's exactly what you said, whether or not it's what you implied.

No.

And again, you act like I'm a retard.

Because you make assumptions like that.

They need tweaking indeed. First less hp, perhaps a little less damage, and I would make the upgrade exclusive with endless swarm so you have to choose which one you'd prefer.

I agree with this.

You guys are suggesting a direct nerf to Termagants. It is my opinion that this unit does not overperform.

Look I may not be as good as you and Asmon, so I would appreciate some more in-depth detail as to why you think they're op is that's the case

[Ace of Swords]

You guys are suggesting a direct nerf to Termagants. It is my opinion that this unit does not overperform.

It was not overperforming nor underperfoming before the Endless swarm/leader implementation, nids were hard to play because both termas and hormas were key units in retail from T1 to the end of the game, and managing their bleed(And their XP feeding) was the skill necessary to play nids propely, now they barely lose models, and when they do they reinforce 2 to 1, no only, their dps becomes crazy AND they provide quite alot of AV, arguabily more than a missile launcher for NO negative sides, they are quite out of control as of now.

[Nurland]

No more calling each other retards etc. K?

[saltychipmunk]

They need tweaking indeed. First less hp, perhaps a little less damage, and I would make the upgrade exclusive with endless swarm so you have to choose which one you'd prefer.

I agree with this.

the exclusivity is a bad idea, if both endless warm and it were in the same tier so you could actually choose between the two, that would be one thing. but they are separated by a tier. Which means you are needlessly gimping the earlier termagaunts that most people can agree arent much of an issue.

no one would pick 2 termagants over the warrior in t3 and even in t2 that future av potential and synapse independence is way to good to give up for just two extra termagaunts /hormas in t2

[Ace of Swords]

I don't think you understand how reinforcing 2 models at the cost of 1 changes the game for nids.

[Dark Riku]

no one would pick 2 termagants over the warrior in t3 and even in t2 that future av potential and synapse independence is way to good to give up for just two extra termagaunts /hormas in t2

I would say it's the other way around.

[Panda]

The nid eco is already very strong. Adding 2 reinforcements for the price of 1 on gaunts exacerbates this. If I'm using them for combat (sometimes even if not) the 60/10 cost is very appealing especially if they escaped with 1 or 2 models. Then again, it's also more upkeep.

For once looking at it from a fluff perspective...isn't it cool to be able to play nids in a swarmy way? I'm thoroughly behind all the changes that have been made to nids so far.

[FiSH]

if i recall correctly, endless swarm does not cost population.

[saltychipmunk]

I don't think you understand how reinforcing 2 models at the cost of 1 changes the game for nids.

hmm you may be right ,I shall strive to better understand its value , thank you sir,

Though if we go from that angle and say that the t3 upgrade is inferior , wouldn't the converse of my opinion be true , and the warrior upgrade would be completely neglected for for the t2 upgrade?

At that point i must ask what would be the point of having the t3 upgrade.

I still think just nerfing hp and damage would be preferable than adding exclusivity

[Asmon]

The T3 upgrade would still be valuable since it will allow you to purchase more gants/gaunts in T3, something that has almost never be done before since it was not cost-efficient.

Also endless swarm does not cost population indeed.

[Lulgrim]

What about nerfing the synapse effect from melee/ranged synapse to basic synapse?

[Bahamut]

I think those warriors should get removed, they really make no sense. I'd rather see that changed to something like endless swarm lvl 2 for even more base models and 3 per reinforce IMO looks better cause is even more swarmy

[Kvek]

I think those warriors should get removed, they really make no sense. I'd rather see that changed to something like endless swarm lvl 2 for even more base models and 3 per reinforce IMO looks better cause is even more swarmy

No, it's already OP that they reinforce 2 for 1, it just makes them not bleed anything at all.

[Bahamut]

You're assuming nids will have a reinforce beacon nearby which by t3 they should be easy to get rid of (except swarmlord). I'm thinking of me sending my independent hormagaunts to cap a far VP and no infantry unit other than termies being able to force them off because not only they got melee synapse without a warrior brood nearby, they also got a warrior model leaping and KB you. Or my termagaunts countering even tanks cause they got venom broods attached to them

The way i see it, would be something like:

Scenario 1:
gaunts with warriors reinforcing at 2:1 with a swarmlord nearby, an enemy forces off or kills my warrior, my gaunts keep their hp and melee skill and continue to eat faces. They also can break off from the blob without any efficiency loss and fight for fap VPs like if they were 2 squads

Scenario 2:
gaunts with no warriors reinforcing at 3:1 with a swarmlord nearby, an enemy killed or forced off my warriors. Now my gaunts lose the 60% hp buff and 10 melee skills, they're now easy to force off or get killed by aoe skills

With gaunts having their own warriors i got no incentive to keep my warriors alive and even less incentive to get genestealers since well.. they still need a separate warrior brood to function. To me, synapse and 2:1 reinforce is completely stronger than no synapse but 3:1 reinforce. But idk, maybe just increase model count and no extra reinforce for t3 endless swarm lvl2

[Ace of Swords]

^Pheromone.

[Lulgrim]

fap VPs

[saltychipmunk]

what if we replace the warriors with like a synapse gaunt. keep the ranged or melee synapse but lose the large hp buff that adding a warrior to the squad would yield along with the added av potential.

I think this would be better since adding the av for the warriors makes the venom brood and std warriors some what irrelevant which I do not think is a good idea , especially since synapse back lash is supposed to be a crucial weakness to the nid army that some races need to exploit.

A synapse gaunt may not be the most realistic idea but Do think that the hp and av components of the t3 upgrades need to be removed

[Orkfaeller]

My biggest "problem" with the whole situation is propably that it just goes so much against the basic Tyranid design: ---> No Squadleaders and/or Special Weapons Members.


Might be a minor thing, but it takes away a bit from the uniqueness.

[saltychipmunk]

Yeah if you examine it from that angle it would make the most sense to just throw out the t3 upgrade and design something else.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

The T3 upgrade would still be valuable since it will allow you to purchase more gants/gaunts in T3, something that has almost never be done before since it was not cost-efficient.

Also endless swarm does not cost population indeed.

If this is true, it should be the first thing which should receive a nerf IMHO. In the same way the upgrade increases the squad size by 2, the upgrade should increase the pop by 2 to the hormagaunt/termagaunt squad.