Fleshhook mechanic and detectors

[PhatE]

I'm curious if there's a way to make the LA not be able to fleshhook leaders that are invincible such as scout sergeant, shoota nob, aspiring champion on heretics, catachans (maybe this one will be more difficult since there are 4 leaders and if they're down to 4 flesh hook may not work if this change were to be implemented?)

It just seems too strong. I can have powerful ranged army, flesh hook and then just hit stop (the S key) and my army won't try and attack the units that make up that squad, but just the leader. You're either forced to retreat or if you're feeling brave stick around with substantially less models without the Tyranid actually having to move from their position and just go to make an attack. It can even be squad wipes in rarer cases considering the generous range and slide that comes with fleshhook and the affected unit. Not to mention capping squads such as scouts getting fleshhooked and the LA has feeder tendrils severely decreasing the HP, which it should since it's an upgrade and a great one at that. But I'd personally prefer to lose just 1 model and get away to let scouts do something else than having to retreat and have them do nothing. Perhaps that's just me but I'm sure that others can relate to what I'm talking about (if it's not just ramble).

It's very risky to buy something that you need in order to get to see this guy, without them you allow the LA to have free reign in tying up your units as well as map presence/map control.

Considering the reduced energy/cooldown (whichever it was) while still keeping it's original characteristics, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider at least.

I'd like to know how others feel about the idea behind it. I can't really see how much worse off Tyranids would be if the LA can't fleshhook detectors.

But yeah post away...or not

Kappa

[Lulgrim]

I'm curious if there's a way to make the LA not be able to fleshhook leaders that are invincible such as scout sergeant, shoota nob, aspiring champion on heretics, catachans

Yes

[Dark Riku]

Oh God yes please.
It should have some other arguments in the coding too though.
- The leaders should be selectable but flesh hook will pull a random other model instead then. This is to prevent you from losing time when you just want to flesh hook a model while accidentally hitting the leader model.
- The leaders should be hookable if it's the last model left in the squad.

It always feel so stupid when using this tactic wiping squads and feels so unfair when this tactic is used against you.

[Vapor]

Personally I feel that flesh hook was just a retarded ability to begin with, but we're stuck with it now short of removing LA from the game. Getting squad leaders killed repeatedly is fucking infuriating and even that pales in comparison to the full on squad wipes described in the OP.

[Raffa]

It's very risky to buy something that you need in order to get to see this guy, without them you allow the LA to have free reign in tying up your units as well as map presence/map control.

Therein lies the problem: he counters his counters. This is a big no-no for me as DoW2 is a game of counters.

- The leaders should be selectable but flesh hook will pull a random other model instead then. This is to prevent you from losing time when you just want to flesh hook a model while accidentally hitting the leader model.
- The leaders should be hookable if it's the last model left in the squad.

If this is possible then do it.

[Lulgrim]

- The leaders should be selectable but flesh hook will pull a random other model instead then. This is to prevent you from losing time when you just want to flesh hook a model while accidentally hitting the leader model.
- The leaders should be hookable if it's the last model left in the squad.

Not sure if this is possible.

Personally I feel that flesh hook was just a retarded ability to begin with, but we're stuck with it now short of removing LA from the game. Getting squad leaders killed repeatedly is fucking infuriating and even that pales in comparison to the full on squad wipes described in the OP.

Well we could just significantly nerf the kb distance so the models are not pulled all the way into the Nid blob...

[Ace of Swords]

Well we could just significantly nerf the kb distance so the models are not pulled all the way into the Nid blob...

The range should be nerfed for other reasons, beign able to gib that last model from half of the map away is stupid not even the inq was able to do that with the old HotW range.

[Torpid]

I agree with the original changes, but certainly not what Ace is suggesting. the whole premise of playing the LA is the ability to bleed your opponent early on and gain that early game advantage, while in the later game/bigger engagements denying the enemy the support of his hero/subcommander when he moves too far forward. If the range was reduced to what the current inq HOTW is then it would be rather crappy and I don't really see why one would play the LA over the HT/RA...

However, yes, removing the ability to snipe entire squads is definitely completely OP and not a fundamental premise of playing the LA and I would certainly advocate the removal of such.

[Batpimp]

i say keep the range of the pull..but once the target is pulled it doesnt move as far. it should still be usd to snipe but getting detectors just so he can pull and can force retreat a squad is lame.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

can fleshhook be given a damage falloff with far/med/near values?

[Arbit]

I've always said that the biggest problem with this ability is that it's range is the same as the standard detection range. Having a detector should give you time to focus down the lictor or at least move your detector back so it doesn't get munched. Instead, buying a detector gives the nid an extra delicious target and makes ridiculous squad wipes possible if it's an "immortal" squad leader.

If he were rebalanced around fleshhooks with a range in the ballpark of 15 or 20, I think he'd still be a viable hero. Even at short range, fleshhooks would still be good for disruption and sniping models.

[Lulgrim]

i say keep the range of the pull..but once the target is pulled it doesnt move as far. it should still be usd to snipe but getting detectors just so he can pull and can force retreat a squad is lame.

That's what I suggested.

can fleshhook be given a damage falloff with far/med/near values?

Yes.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

that might be a good option then. you could leave the range as is but decrease the far damage to the point that it couldn't kill even the weakest detectors at that range while also reducing the knockback. you could still snipe low health units but it wouldn't wreck squads anymore. if it's possible, having the knockback scale with distance is another option.

[Dark Riku]

Let's not go overboard here either ^^

If the model hooked would make like a faceplant instead of being pulled across the map so the hook could still be used to disrupt suppression teams etc would be a good enough change already I think. If after that the hook still over performs like it does now they can still start adjusting damage, range, etc.

[Torpid]

Yeah, I read that wrong.

The hook can't faceplant units lol. That would make the lictor functionally retarded, how would face-planting a havoc even help it would just set straight back up again, not to mention it would make hooking heroes/sub-commanders absolutely useless. Why would anybody even want to ply the lictor then? It would be way better to just go RA get the burrow armour and you are just as good vs set-up teams but have way better moblity, and a stronger hero for large engagements alongside better support.

I think as far we should go with flesh hook is to make it not pull die-last models, that's it. I'm assuming Caeltos agrees based on the fact that h gave flesh hook that cooldown reduction not so long ago.

[Dark Riku]

Definitely agree there Riku. Theh ook needs to pull things pretty far because....

I just said the complete opposite.

[Batpimp]

i say keep the range of the pull..but once the target is pulled it doesnt move as far. it should still be usd to snipe but getting detectors just so he can pull and can force retreat a squad is lame.

That's what I suggested.

i know i was agreeing with you.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the only setup model that isn't instantly killed by fleshhook is a plat. oh, and a mekboy. in general units are just killed outright because it does very high sniper damage.

[Asmon]

It's 160 to regular infantry and 100 to commanders. It won't kill any chaos or SM model. And it's actually better not to kill it instantly as it disrupts the set-up team even more.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

eh, you're right. i guess i'm just remembering the devs getting killed by other units after being pulled. i don't know if elite has buffed it but dow.wikia says 140 and devs have 225 so they'll have about half health left. if rushed they'll probably get setup and then die immediately. a damage nerf might make a difference in that case but it's unlikely to be a large one.

[Dark Riku]

The hook can't faceplant units lol. That would make the lictor functionally retarded, how would face-planting a havoc even help it would just set straight back up again, not to mention it would make hooking heroes/sub-commanders absolutely useless. Why would anybody even want to ply the lictor then? It would be way better to just go RA get the burrow armour and you are just as good vs set-up teams but have way better moblity, and a stronger hero for large engagements alongside better support.

Knockback is one of the most brutal mechanics in this game. It also does straight up damage instantly by just pointing and clicking. If you don't see how this is not useful I'm just lost for words.


But let me specifically explain especially for you:

The havoc model will never get back up and then set-up back in time to stop any advance. (Sub-)commanders will get knocked back which still means their certain death when used correctly and it's still straight up instant damage on demand.

Why would they still keep playing the LA?
Because he would still be the beast he is right now. Just slightly less lame.
Non of your other arguments make any sense. Reinforce ability in T1= bad support?! This is one of the best, if not the best, support ability you can have in T1.
How is the LA weaker than the RA? °_O Feeder tendrils make the LA win vs every other commander in the game. Unless they invested in more than just 1 wargear.

It would be way better to just go RA get the burrow armour and you are just as good vs set-up teams but have way better moblity

Except for the fact that a detector will shut down this upgrade.
While the LA will just flesh hook the special weapon model.

I think as far we should go with flesh hook is to make it not pull die-last models, that's it. I'm assuming Caeltos agrees based on the fact that h gave flesh hook that cooldown reduction not so long ago.

How do those 2 even relate to each other? °_0

[crazyman64335]

why not just reduce the fleshhook ability back to its old CD?

[Vapor]

I like the idea of making invincible squad leaders unhookable. I mean you can't snipe them down anyway so the only point of hooking them most of the time is to abuse this mechanic.

However, the hook should still be able to target the leader if he's the last model remaining (obviously).

[Bahamut]

is it possible to just make the hook target a random model in the squad rather than the one you clicked?. It's always sad to downgrade a game by adding more random factors but it does seems pretty weird that you can hook a model, FF the hell out of it, and kill the rest of the squad that's way far away from it

Altho what's fair is fair, inspire terror can snipe sergeants as well. If nerfs are in order to flesh hook so should be for flak armor and all the abilities with the same mechanic

[Vapor]

is it possible to just make the hook target a random model in the squad rather than the one you clicked?. It's always sad to downgrade a game by adding more random factors but it does seems pretty weird that you can hook a model, FF the hell out of it, and kill the rest of the squad that's way far away from it

Altho what's fair is fair, inspire terror can snipe sergeants as well. If nerfs are in order to flesh hook so should be for flak armor and all the abilities with the same mechanic

I would argue that this is a negligible source of randomness, I mean just target the model you want to hit if that floats your boat.

Inspire terror does not pull in sarges which is the main issue, I think most similar abilities are perfectly ok.

Maybe the BC's Psychic Lash needs to be examined as well?

[Dark Riku]

why not just reduce the fleshhook ability back to its old CD?

Because that still won't change how the ability can do what it does now.
Deleting squads due to mechanics.

Altho what's fair is fair, inspire terror can snipe sergeants as well. If nerfs are in order to flesh hook so should be for flak armor and all the abilities with the same mechanic

Inspire terror does not pull in sarges which is the main issue, I think most similar abilities are perfectly ok.

Exactly ^^.
That's why I like the "faceplant" idea. Since it doesn't mess with the damage or range. Heck it could also stun the model for a certain amount of time if the ability is found UP after the change. Something I highly doubt will be the case though.

[Tex]

I'm with Riku on this one, make flesh hook do a very small pull distance so it still disrupts.

On the topic of LA, why the fuck do feeder tendrils STILL do power_melee damage?

IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE!

/end hatred of LA

[Forestradio]

I'm with Riku on this one, make flesh hook do a very small pull distance so it still disrupts.

On the topic of LA, why the fuck do feeder tendrils STILL do power_melee damage?

IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE!

/end hatred of LA

All the LA weapons do power melee dps to the best of my knowledge. Around 62 dps if I remember correctly

[Kvek]

Toxin Miasma does only melee damage, but it slows and lowers the damage output.