Teleport/Invulnerability in High DPS tanky heroes

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Should stay as it is something as powerful as a teleport or an invulnerability in high DPS tanky heroes, considering all the benefits that two mechanics brings to that heroes?

Discuss, plox.

[Sub_Zero]

Don't even know what to say. These things have been since beginning of the game. Why people started to complain about that right now? (Watch another thread about fc being op with power fist and teleporter)

[Ace of Swords]

Don't even know what to say. These things have been since beginning of the game. Why people started to complain about that right now? (Watch another thread about fc being op with power fist and teleporter)

Because this game had alot of problems and some where overshadowed by bigger issues, what the BB oneshotting tanks fine because it was t3 and costed 1000/200? NO.

And so isn't fine when an HT with 8 seconds invulnerability(I think?) And 100+ heavy melee goes around, especially when you can't suppress or KB it after or during, + taking into account his healtpool, the mekboy force field is also not fine, applying it to yourself and then teleporting into the ranged force of the enemy while taking almost no damage and immune to melee is broken as hell too, or the fact that the LC can almost 1 shot any sub commander or the TM increaseing the damage taken by a unit by 50% etc...

There is a shitload of broken things which shouldn't be in the game which were covered by bigger problems.

[Sub_Zero]

Yeah, I got you. I consider some things as overpowered too. But I got used to it. Only a few really piss me off.

[PePPeR]

Yea the Mek boy teleporting in with Shock, oooooh id love to kick someone in the balls for that!.

No matter what commander were talking about, dont we see a pattern here?. This clearly needs looked at and for all intensive purposes it could give the game a nice anti-rage factor if its dealt with. If they could sit down and look at each commander war gear selection and decide on were the one serious imba is in the upgrades it would be nice. What id do personally is, identify the 2 combos in each commander which is causing the most imba so if one is choosen then id lock the other.... So be it:

FC picks teleporter, then fist is locked
mek boy picks shock, then teleport is locked..... and so on.

Is it even possible to do this?. Its the best way, NO NERFING it will just imba it more.

Another thing which is just as bad is the solo combo globals, after the use of one there should be a cooldown to stop this game wrecker. More and more players are getting used to it. The only way this should be allowed to happen is as if 2 players work together to accomplish it, at least then it was strategic.

[Vapor]

Don't even know what to say. These things have been since beginning of the game. Why people started to complain about that right now? (Watch another thread about fc being op with power fist and teleporter)

Because this game had alot of problems and some where overshadowed by bigger issues, what the BB oneshotting tanks fine because it was t3 and costed 1000/200? NO.

And so isn't fine when an HT with 8 seconds invulnerability(I think?) And 100+ heavy melee goes around, especially when you can't suppress or KB it after or during, + taking into account his healtpool, the mekboy force field is also not fine, applying it to yourself and then teleporting into the ranged force of the enemy while taking almost no damage and immune to melee is broken as hell too, or the fact that the LC can almost 1 shot any sub commander or the TM increaseing the damage taken by a unit by 50% etc...

There is a shitload of broken things which shouldn't be in the game which were covered by bigger problems.

+1.

I would like to add that elite mod has done a good job so far of avoiding the trap of "economic balancing" i.e. attempting to make over the top bullshit ok by simply slapping a hefty req/power cost on it. There is still work to be done however.

[Torpid]

I don't think neither of these are inherently OP tbh, the prices of both of them make them fine inherently. Adjustments can still be made of course, but I don't feel these effects are a total-No No to have on such heroes.

[Sub_Zero]

FC picks teleporter, then fist is locked

He teleports in and you start to move your vehicle away. Trying to damage FC as much as possible. Using snares, knockbacks etc. He will be able to reach your vehicle only if combines melta bomb/lascannon snare

mek boy picks shock, then teleport is locked..... and so on.

Even easier. Split away your units. Snare mekboy, knockback him, supress him. This piece of wargear I rarely see. If it will be fixed who is gonna use it ever? When this wargear is used? Against nidz, orks, ig... Well against squishy units. Shoota boyz can supress him, termagaunts can snare him. There are tons of ways to deal with it. However if his 2x shoota boyz pin down your 2x ranged units it will force you to retreat them

[Bahamut]

i belive plague champion fist should get the nerf hammer too. You can counter melee, range and tanks with it

Or chaos lord being able to solo an avatar. He can also steal energy and life at the same time while doing 100 power melee dps

[Torpid]

i belive plague champion fist should get the nerf hammer too. You can counter melee, range and tanks with it

No you can't, the plague champion is slow to begin with, can be suppressed and knocked over and has poor health. When he gets pestilence he can still be suppressed but becomes even slower. The fist is mainly anti-melee, it isn't worth the price to get it for anything else, in fact both of his melee weapons are anti-melee, the spewer is for control synergy (synergises with NM/GL tics/ blight grenades) and anti-blob.

If you think PC fist is OP you must really think FC fist is bonkers.

[Nurland]

Chaos Lord is immobile while using drain life and it is a fairly short ability (3 seconds iirc). Chaos Lord with LC is a power melee machine of death. You are not supposed to melee him with unsupported HI/SHI units. You are supposed to shoot him down or use vehicles. You don't send your dread in to fight Power Fist FC or CC HT, do you?

Removing teleport from PF FC is an unnecessary nerf to say the least. It would just nerf both wargears too much.

How exactly does fist PC counter tanks? It's heavy melee but he is slow as hell. There is no way he should be able to kill tanks. He can soft counter melee walkers when fully kitted out. Ranged walkers to some extent. But tanks... He is just way too slow.

Mek Electric Armour is generally countered by not blobbing up. The KB shield is slightly bullshit though. Especially Deffguns. You basically can't tie him up but he will just disrupt and damage your inf. or rape you vehicles.

HT invulnerability is kinda tricky. I mean some heroes have pretty reasonable counters for it. But some heroes really struggle against that.

And I somehow find it strange that someone complains about comboing globals or abilities or both. Some cominations may be slightly lame but most of them usually require some sort of timing skill to successfully pull off.

[Forestradio]

+1 to what Nurland said.

I can make my GK termies solo any infantry unit in the game with their hammerhand and mind blades global. But it requires presence of mind to activate those both at the same time. And it costs red.

I always thought invulnerability abilities should only grant 90 % damage reduction, not true invulnerability. It makes it less about just clicking a button and auto-winning

[Bahamut]

You don't send your dread in to fight Power Fist FC or CC HT, do you?

i think that sums it up really. My first post is an example that you can complain about whatever random stuff just beat u in a match or just, as nurland said, learn how to counter these things

IF you don't have the means to counter an invul CC HT doesnt mean it's OP, is actually quite easy to control a HT overall. And for the FC, he at best can get KB immunity via battle cry or iron halo, he can always get suppressed and focus fired to dead.

And FFS they're heroes, they're supposed to be better. I've never seen someone complain about chaos sorc being able to teleport vehicles around for instance

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Chaos already have 2 Tanky Heavy-weights that can Stalk an Army...
HT has 2 Tanky builds :

CC/Seismic roar + Improved Health synapse + Warp field
CC + Invulnerability armour

Normally supported with a Range or meele Synapse Blob, All FC Heroes are Fragile compared to the Chaos heroes. Still Heroes can be countered by many stuff

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I open this thread to talk about if it's fine Teleport/Invulnerability abilities in High DPS tanky heroes and the people start talking about how powerful Chaos' heroes are.

Awesome.

Chaos Lord has a tanky build, that's right. Claws + Harness of Rage + Dark Halo. And it's fucking tanky. But, you need the support of your army , because if not in his way to reach melee combat is going to take serious ranged damage/burn energy. Where a Teleport commander could simply teleport and instantly start melee combat, even without any kind of support.

Plague Champion has a tanky build too. Powerfist + Pestilence + Breath of Nurgle combo. But with this wargear is very slow, and still can suffer suppression and then go even slower. His Pestilent Strike could give him ranged inmunitiy (90%) but this aura is static.

I'm not against Invulnerability/Teleport, but IMHO should be only in squishy/trolling commanders, or at least in commanders which you can counter in some way.

For example, Inquisitor have Invulnerability + Speed, but you still can knockback her or suppress her. Also she have relatively low hp and damage.

Same for Teleport. I see fine in commanders with troll role, like the Warpspider Exarch, the Mekboy or the Chaos Sorcerer, with relatively low hp and damage.

It's stupid to have to say it, but with the Teleport or the Invulnerability you are negating the only thing you can do against these melee beasts: focus ranged fire. Because except you have another commander-melee beast, Dread or superunit, you can't do a shit.

[Dark Riku]

If they could sit down and look at each commander war gear selection and decide on were the one serious imba is in the upgrades it would be nice. What id do personally is, identify the 2 combos in each commander which is causing the most imba so if one is choosen then id lock the other....

Don't you think this is a little bit offensive? :/
You don't think Caeltos has already put great thought in this mod?

If you think PC fist is OP you must really think FC fist is bonkers.

Again with the bad comparisons. They both do AV dmg and the similarities end there. The FC fist is more aggressive due to it being on the FC and the ability it has vs vehicles. The PC fist however has a very nice anti-infantry ability and can provide you with ranged dmg protection too.

I open this thread to talk about if it's fine Teleport/Invulnerability abilities in High DPS tanky heroes and the people start talking about how powerful Chaos' heroes are.

Yes it's fine and I'm glad it backfired in your eyes. :p

[Bahamut]

I open this thread to talk about if it's fine Teleport/Invulnerability abilities in High DPS tanky heroes and the people start talking about how powerful Chaos' heroes are.

Awesome.

It was too easy to see where you were coming from. Each hero has a role and each performs it in their own way. Not because the HT got invul and the chaos lord doesnt means the HT is better or even tankier. Chaos lord has tics workship to help him move faster, nidz dont have anything alike. The HT either charges (no invul!) or walks all the way at 4.5 speed

Chaos Lord has a tanky build, that's right. Claws + Harness of Rage + Dark Halo. And it's fucking tanky. But, you need the support of your army , because if not in his way to reach melee combat is going to take serious ranged damage/burn energy. Where a Teleport commander could simply teleport and instantly start melee combat, even without any kind of support.

This is total bias, the chaos lord needs way less support than a FC. And at the same time you have to sink way more resources into the FC to make him do what he does

I dont wanna be an asshole but this thread guy...

[Torpid]

If you think PC fist is OP you must really think FC fist is bonkers.

Again with the bad comparisons. They both do AV dmg and the similarities end there. The FC fist is more aggressive due to it being on the FC and the ability it has vs vehicles. The PC fist however has a very nice anti-infantry ability and can provide you with ranged dmg protection too.

Riku stop being so belligerent. Read it in context. He said the reason for the PC fist being OP is how it counters melee, ranged and vehicles. The power fist of the FC does the whole bunch of those things together much better than the PC does, however to compensate for that the PC 's fist is far better as anti-melee.

[Dark Riku]

Riku stop being so belligerent. Read it in context. He said the reason for the PC fist being OP is how it counters melee, ranged and vehicles. The power fist of the FC does the whole bunch of those things together much better than the PC does, however to compensate for that the PC 's fist is far better as anti-melee.

I shall ignore first part of that post since this is a forum and I'm merely replying to posts and expressing my own opinions. I can't help it if that's belligerent for you.


Non of the fists instantly counter said things though.

-The FC can counter melee units with battlecry if said units decides to engage him in melee for some odd reason or in combo with something that's already supposed to counter melee, like suppression or another form of knockback.
You can use your FC in a defensive role however that is usually not his best use. This can prove to be effective at certain occasions though.
-Explain to me how the FC fist counters ranged. ????
-The FC can counter vehicles if he can get next to vehicles and they don't move.

-The PC can counter melee units charging in his line by stunning them.
-The PC negates 90% ranged dmg with his ability. Great for capping under pressure or for using in a firefight around your ranged units.
-The PC can counter walkers that come marching in or anything foolish to clash with the PC lines, like a wartuk delivering some Sluggas.

What makes you think that the PC fist would get a "compensation" if the FC fist would be better in every way? The FC fist is not better in every way...
They are both different with both their different traits.

[Asmon]

Let's lock this thread. Seriously.

Caeltos suggested to us to look at existant units and piece of wargears in order to fix what requires fixing. And what are you doing here? Posting in a thread with a title so vague than everyone can speak about anything. This is leading nowhere.

If you think something is wrong, do create a specific thread about it and only it.

[PePPeR]

Riku, the rod up your butt must have a rod up its butt!.

The Elite creators and design team have our praises, me and 3 of my pals have returned to DOW2 solely because of Elite and have contributed via PayPal to keep the support afloat via Indrids channel or whatever else, of course not everything will make sense but its our opinion and what i/we say in no way attempts to undermine the effort being thats been put into this mod by the team. Wether our posts are feasible or not im sure Caeltos or whoever in the forum can take it on board or not. I dont know why people take things so offensively, we are all friends here!.

Looking at the wargear, finding the combos are causing the most rage and (which are flaged as imba in the eyes of the design team) have a choice on which one to use is the easiest way. Every one will get it and at least there will be no nerfing and buffing which will dam it all to hell should that start, specially when they have worked hard to get the balance real decent now. Maybe they shouldnt touch it at all, in which case its pointless even talking about it this topic as the FC teleport + PF has been raged over since the DOT (dawn of time) in this game and nothing was ever done about it.

[Lulgrim]

Yea the Mek boy teleporting in with Shock, oooooh id love to kick someone in the balls for that!.

Uh that's not even a wargear combo, TP is his starting ability... And that's exactly what Electric Armor was designed for. Anyway, we already nerfed it to make kiting/splitting easier.

What id do personally is, identify the 2 combos in each commander which is causing the most imba so if one is choosen then id lock the other.... So be it:

FC picks teleporter, then fist is locked
mek boy picks shock, then teleport is locked..... and so on.

That is just completely contrary to to fundamental design of DoW2 as well as annoyingly unintuitive. Without even asking Caeltos I feel safe saying this will never, ever be seriously considered. "I don't know how to make this reasonable so I'll just remove it," basically. Elite aims higher than that.

Another thing which is just as bad is the solo combo globals

The what?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

It was too easy to see where you were coming from. Each hero has a role and each performs it in their own way. Not because the HT got invul and the chaos lord doesnt means the HT is better or even tankier. Chaos lord has tics workship to help him move faster, nidz dont have anything alike. The HT either charges (no invul!) or walks all the way at 4.5 speed

You think I'm new in this neighborhood, brother? I don't want a Invulnerability in the Chaos Lord. And as much I would like see a Teleport in the Chaos Lord, my own argument forces to me to apply also a melee damage reduction in all weapons.

Still, Caeltos would hear a simphony of
from the entire world from its icy northlands if I even dare to suggest a Teleport to the Chaos Lord.

Tyrannids have Infestation Towers to increase the speed by 1 to all the Tyrannid army except Carnifex and Swarm Lord.

But I'm not compairing Chaos Lord vs HT. I'm seeing the performance of the Invulnerability in a heroe with tons of health and with high damage in their army.

With a heroe, with the possibility to have high dps Heavy_Melee weapon, giving to non-synapse criatures awesome buffs, with passive inmunity to weapon_knockback and suppression, making shooting Termagaunts or Hormagaunts even more a waste of time and with Synapse criatures behind the Terma/Hormagaunts meatshield give to the heroe a Invulnerability is simply retarded. It's simply an I WIN button. At least with Chaos I can spam AOE attacks and try to focus down the Synapse criatures, but if the Tyrannid player have Melee/Ranged synapse even this would be insufficient.

This is total bias, the chaos lord needs way less support than a FC. And at the same time you have to sink way more resources into the FC to make him do what he does

I dont wanna be an asshole but this thread guy...

Since he needs heretics to increase his speed to reach melee combat meanwhile the Force Commander can simply sprint with his Alacrity armour or use his teleport, yes, Chaos Lord needs way more support than Force Commander to do his role.

Let's lock this thread. Seriously.

Caeltos suggested to us to look at existant units and piece of wargears in order to fix what requires fixing. And what are you doing here? Posting in a thread with a title so vague than everyone can speak about anything. This is leading nowhere.

If you think something is wrong, do create a specific thread about it and only it.

Vague? How many "tanky melee heroes with Teleport/Invulnerability" have this game? With teleport only the Brother Captain and to a lesser extent, the Force Commander. With Invulnerability only the Brother Captain and the Hive Tyrant.

The title is pretty clear and concise.

[Nurland]

Please stick to the topic and stop taking shots at each other.

[PePPeR]

Ill have you know this lock/unlock upgrade idea was considered a few times as says Jonny Ebbert, be it a long time ago it was discussed on the community. Though just because the idea was never implemented into the game dont mean its flawed!.

or does it?.

[Bahamut]

With a heroe, with the possibility to have high dps Heavy_Melee weapon, giving to non-synapse criatures awesome buffs, with passive inmunity to weapon_knockback and suppression, making shooting Termagaunts or Hormagaunts even more a waste of time and with Synapse criatures behind the Terma/Hormagaunts meatshield give to the heroe a Invulnerability is simply retarded. It's simply an I WIN button. At least with Chaos I can spam AOE attacks and try to focus down the Synapse criatures, but if the Tyrannid player have Melee/Ranged synapse even this would be insufficient.

You'll have to submit replays for this. That "I win" button is pretty much the least used armor for HT as far as i know, and there's a reason for it

Since he needs heretics to increase his speed to reach melee combat meanwhile the Force Commander can simply sprint with his Alacrity armour or use his teleport, yes, Chaos Lord needs way more support than Force Commander to do his role.

I'll rather wait for better and more renowned players to comment on this

[Ace of Swords]

With a heroe, with the possibility to have high dps Heavy_Melee weapon, giving to non-synapse criatures awesome buffs, with passive inmunity to weapon_knockback and suppression, making shooting Termagaunts or Hormagaunts even more a waste of time and with Synapse criatures behind the Terma/Hormagaunts meatshield give to the heroe a Invulnerability is simply retarded. It's simply an I WIN button. At least with Chaos I can spam AOE attacks and try to focus down the Synapse criatures, but if the Tyrannid player have Melee/Ranged synapse even this would be insufficient.

You'll have to submit replays for this. That "I win" button is pretty much the least used armor for HT as far as i know, and there's a reason for it

how it's the least used? lol.

[Torpid]

Well personally I never use it due to it's rather large power cost and uselessness in t1, I find by t2 my nid deathball is already rolling and spending 40 power on that armour is really meh unless I have CC which then costs another 50 power...

Not to mention that invulnerability ability costs energy so it doesn't synergise well with any of the accessories, nor the rending talons and then the health synapse is just an amazingly underrated wargear. Yeah, I definitely use the invulnerability on the HT the least.

[Dark Riku]

@PePPeR
Great that you like and praise the Elite mod but saying "they" (Caeltos) should think about all these wargears is just straight up disrespectful in my eyes. You are implying that Caeltos has spend no time whatsoever in reviewing these things.
That was all I was trying to bring across. No need for this kind of reaction.

Donating to Indrid helps out Indrid. And unless Indrid donates anything to Caeltos it's not "contributing" to the Elite mod. Still lovely if you do though ^^

As for the rest of your post I'm finding it hard to understand what you are trying to say or what your point is.

This is total bias, the chaos lord needs way less support than a FC. And at the same time you have to sink way more resources into the FC to make him do what he does

I dont wanna be an asshole but this thread guy...

Since he needs heretics to increase his speed to reach melee combat meanwhile the Force Commander can simply sprint with his Alacrity armour or use his teleport, yes, Chaos Lord needs way more support than Force Commander to do his role.

Now you are definitely showing bias.
First of all those are all upgrades. It's not like the FC starts with those.
Second, hell no, the CL does not need any more support than the FC does.
If anything he needs less. The FC is at his best around his allies.
Unlike the CL who can be just slugging around on his own.

how it's the least used? lol.

^This

[Bahamut]

how it's the least used? lol.

Tho it's a retarded hard claim to prove from my part. From all replays i've been able to find of Rikku, Tex, Wurlg, Toilalee, Fahu, hammer, VindicareX, Asmon, etc.. i have seen but a few where a HT is being played (most are LA) and of those few i've seen, only in a handful of those these players have got or fought against the invul armor. And if i recall correctly, in none that armor made the difference. I'd say either indrid, cretella, steve bud or rupee could support / deny that claim better than anyone else, since they're expert casters and i could imply they've seen way more replays than myself

I personally have a hard time figuring out when should i go invul instead of charge or hp synapse. The charge is ability KB so it will control even termies and big commanders, the improved synapse is a pretty good support armor, gives ALL your non synapse units (except fexes, for a reason i guess).

The only time i'd say i rather have bonded exoskeleton is if i wanted to go 1v1 vs melee walkers or super heavies or as an "oh shit" ability to decap under high pressure, but then who tries to 1v1 a CC HT with a walker? i'd as bad of a choice as of trying to 1v1 a claw CL with terminators or ogryms

Ace, Rikku, i ask you. Do you think bonded exoskeleton is OP or even close of being OP?