Dawn of War Codex

Asmon wrote:A cooldown on the teleport seems to be the best solution, though I'm not convinced there is an actual issue to address.

Im not convinced thare is a issue 100% ether. But i think a cooldown on the jump would hurt them a bit to much. Since it would make a escape jump much harder witch is something ASM and raptors use alot.

Flash wrote:When they're teleporting away, tying up your layered suppression, they are should be to far away to be supported. Riku is right, in that they change the match up and demand different counters that what would be traditionally considered. And as you said about being in t1, interceptors in t1 are much more vulnerable due to their lack of disruption. And they are reallllyy expensive to reinforce.

Yha but they are not un supported they can still get energy from the Strike squade giveing them a bump to get back into the main regen pool

Raptors have an escape jump? har har har har!

I have read this entire thread. I have coincidentally upped my usage of GK in 1v1's. I have tried unsuccessfully to use the listed build, as well as most other builds that involve building interceptors in t1, for the exact reasons that I listed before. Building interceptors in t2 is largely foolish considering I only need 25 more power for a purifier squad and I can now buy a teleporter for my hero.

I'm concluding that the fact that interceptors can jump a whole bunch in t2 is trivial at best, especially considering that a GK player with this build SHOULD NOT beat you to t2... EVER! The coinciding early vehicle will be more than enough to send that foolishly overspending GK back to Titan in a hurry.

Until interceptors get a functioning buff to their AV capacity, this is absolutely a non-issue.

Gorilla wrote:

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Wut? Space marine synergies are like, everything they do. ....

eh i dont think so.

Eh, I think so.

SirSid wrote:Yha but they are not un supported they can still get energy from the Strike squade giveing them a bump to get back into the main regen pool

Provided they can keep up with their teleporting brethren.

Tex wrote:Raptors have an escape jump? har har har har!

Depending on how you use them, they can jump away yes.
Or when they leveled up twice.

Tex wrote:I'm concluding that the fact that interceptors can jump a whole bunch in t2 is trivial at best, especially considering that a GK player with this build SHOULD NOT beat you to t2... EVER! The coinciding early vehicle will be more than enough to send that foolishly overspending GK back to Titan in a hurry.

Overspending? Why would you not be in T2 at the same time as your opponent?
I don't see how Interceptors automatically translate into losing the tech race.
Since you will buy them vs suppression teams that cost 30 power too
or vs something like dual big shootas that also costs 40 power, etc.

Tex wrote:Until interceptors get a functioning buff to their AV capacity, this is absolutely a non-issue.

Yeah I don't get why their snare doesn't work like melta/haywire :/
And even if it did work like those I still don't think this combo is an issue.

I said overspending because you have a guy saying he has the nemesis sword (20), canticle of absolution (25) interceptors (50) and a sarge (15) with possible nades (20) on his storm troopers.

That is a possible 130 power spent over 3 squads and a hero. That is grossly overspending power in t1 for GK. Of course, that's just my opinion I guess.

This is just my opinion, but the only build order that seems to work for gk 1v1 in my experience is 3x Stormtroopers + Strike Squad.

Purgation do not seem to be the most solid choice for 300/30 and Interceptors, although they can get powerful in Tier 2, don't really measure up early on in 1v1 especially since they can't disrupt and rely on Canticle of Absolution to really have an impact. 500/50 is a quite a lot for a unit that requires a further 25 power wargear to be very effective in Tier 1, which I have seen really set people back when they need the power for hero Wargear or Stormtrooper upgrades or the like. Again, this is just from what I've seen but their grenades do not seem to carry the same threat to vehicles as Melta Bombs do: might I inquire as to why they must throw their grenade at ground rather than auto-target it to vehicles?

3x Stormtroopers means you can compete for early map control and lots of grenades to act as suppression and melee counters, although these aren't the best by any stretch of one's imagination. In melee it seems that Grey Knights rely too much on the Strike Squad's special attacks, possibly buffed by the Brother-Captain sword. This has also scaled quite nicely to Tier 2 with mines to snare vehicles, a large repair force for your likely dreadnought, and still good damage too. The Strike Squad generally then offer further utility.

I hope this has been helpful, or if it's just total nonsense please do let me know.

Tex wrote:I said overspending because you have a guy saying he has the nemesis sword (20), canticle of absolution (25) interceptors (50) and a sarge (15) with possible nades (20) on his storm troopers.

That is a possible 130 power spent over 3 squads and a hero. That is grossly overspending power in t1 for GK. Of course, that's just my opinion I guess.

actually one really only needs the CA and the power needed for the interceptors. All the other upgrades mentioned are usually a user discretion type of thing in that you would get them as necessary .

you don't need the nade unless a vehicle is present. you dont need the power sword unless you really want that buff to counter a t1 war-gear purchase on the opponents part. and the nades while effective can also be optional if you are just going for ninja caps .

it also all depends on if that particular build is enough to force the opposition off of their power farms. If it is then everything falls in place. If it is not then i would agree that would be an uphill battle for gk.

most people can agree that no matter what gk does once an opponent gets a real tank in play , the gk will need to over spend for av anyway. So in that light an over investment in t1 as long as the power nodes are destroyed as a result might be a good plan.

Tex wrote:I said overspending because you have a guy saying he has the nemesis sword (20), canticle of absolution (25) interceptors (50) and a sarge (15) with possible nades (20) on his storm troopers.

That is a possible 130 power spent over 3 squads and a hero. That is grossly overspending power in t1 for GK. Of course, that's just my opinion I guess.

That's quite a standard power build for any race, especially considering the fact that the power sword is fully optional.

Of course, the other races can get 1 or 2 gens way before GKs because of their req costs.

Ace of Swords wrote:

Tex wrote:I said overspending because you have a guy saying he has the nemesis sword (20), canticle of absolution (25) interceptors (50) and a sarge (15) with possible nades (20) on his storm troopers.

That is a possible 130 power spent over 3 squads and a hero. That is grossly overspending power in t1 for GK. Of course, that's just my opinion I guess.

That's quite a standard power build for any race, especially considering the fact that the power sword is fully optional.

Of course, the other races can get 1 or 2 gens way before GKs because of their req costs.

Spending 130 power on 3 squads and a hero is not standard for ANY race in 1v1. Notice the parameter you missed.

Banshees w/ aspect = 20
DA w/ aspect = 15
Shuriken = 30
Warlock w/ MWb+Robes = 65

Overall power expenditure on 3 squads in t1 = 130.

Add to that the fact that grenade launchers on IST are totally unnecessary assuming you have the improved WATH + GKI.

Without being condescending, may I show you how your line of logic is very weak?

I'll assume you say yes ...

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Banshees w/ aspect = 20
DA w/ aspect = 15
Shuriken = 30
Warlock w/ MWb+Robes = 65

Overall power expenditure on 3 squads in t1 = 130.

Add to that the fact that grenade launchers on IST are totally unnecessary assuming you have the improved WATH + GKI.

DA into Banshee into Shuriken = you will get owned. There are several reasons you won't be able to pull this build off against a player of equal or better skill, and greatest of these is map control. This build fails miserably a high percentage of the time and thus it is not a typical build.

Same goes for GK. Having only a stormtrooper squad and a strike squad and a hero ALL THE WAY UNTIL INTERCEPTORS COME OUT is almost an impossibility against a player of equal or better skill. To even entertain the idea of not upgrading to the IST sergeant is ludicrous. Futher, to not get grenade launchers means that your strike squad is going to get mugged by something at an early point in the game.

It all adds up to failure.

What are you talking about the SS will get mugged without grenade launchers? The SS beats all defualt melee squads and with WATH and being able to shoot on approach they even beat aspect shees. With sergeant IST support they can easily fend off melee alone.

Frankly 1 IST is a bad idea, the build should go SS,IST,GKI just like the eldar shuri build goes da,shees,da,shuri, but yeah, I don't actually know why the idea was to go one IST because it is quite frankly an inferior build, just like going tacs, asm instead of tacs,scout,asm.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Banshees w/ aspect = 20
DA w/ aspect = 15
Shuriken = 30
Warlock w/ MWb+Robes = 65

Overall power expenditure on 3 squads in t1 = 130.

Add to that the fact that grenade launchers on IST are totally unnecessary assuming you have the improved WATH + GKI.

Don't wish to be rude, but assuming your opponent is not a retarded gorilla he will notice the glaring weakness in your strategy and go for 5+ squads in Tier 1, likely with 2 suppression teams. For the life of me I can't fathom how that you could maintain map control, compete in engagements, or how you'd get all those upgrades out without being power bashed and out-teched.

2DA, 1 she isn't exactly the meta for Eldar.
There are plenty of 1v1's where Eldar can go for only 1 DA.
Like torpid said that would still be 130 power on 3 squads+hero in T1.
Where you can also have other squads, like an extra DA squad, in the build.

130 power doesn't seem that over the top in T1 for me either.
Considering some of the upgrades mentioned are optional.
It all depends on how your map control is and what your opponent has though.

Panda wrote:

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Banshees w/ aspect = 20
DA w/ aspect = 15
Shuriken = 30
Warlock w/ MWb+Robes = 65

Overall power expenditure on 3 squads in t1 = 130.

Add to that the fact that grenade launchers on IST are totally unnecessary assuming you have the improved WATH + GKI.

Don't wish to be rude, but assuming your opponent is not a retarded gorilla he will notice the glaring weakness in your strategy and go for 5+ squads in Tier 1, likely with 2 suppression teams. For the life of me I can't fathom how that you could maintain map control, compete in engagements, or how you'd get all those upgrades out without being power bashed and out-teched.

Lol, eldar can avoid all that shit you wrote at the end with merely a spider, DA and upgraded shees even if the foe gets 5 squads. Did you bother to even read my second comment which was posted 4hours before yours? There's four squads, I was just pointing out that the da,shee, mwb+robes,shuri is a very popular base for eldar. You can throw in another shuri, rangers, an avenger squad or even two avenger squads on top of that and it's still effective, but the premise still remains - it costs 130 power for 3 squads and a hero.

Please provide me with a replay where you spend those 130 power as you said and win vs a decent opponent.

Panda wrote:For the life of me I can't fathom how that you could maintain map control, compete in engagements, or how you'd get all those upgrades out without being power bashed and out-teched.

That Torpid Gamer wrote:Lol, eldar can avoid all that shit you wrote at the end with merely a spider, DA and upgraded shees even if the foe gets 5 squads.

I am sorry to disagree with you again but I do not believe this is correct. If I am wrong, please could you explain how Eldar can maintain map control, compete in engagements and keep their power farm secure against 5 squads (and a hero) with only a WSE, DA and upgraded shees?

Asmon wrote:Please provide me with a replay where you spend those 130 power as you said and win vs a decent opponent.

I don't think I've ever seen a player win one of the 'pro' games after spending 130 power on 3 squads and a hero in Tier 1 of a 1v1 - seen it spent on more squads but not on that few. In bigger games, which I am aware is not how the mod is balanced, it is a possible build order but I don't think that's relevent here.

I hope I don't come across as confrontational - I merely want to know how Eldar can counter all of the "shit" I wrote with those units you suggested, and quite honestly what made you "lol" at my suggestion.

Please stick to the topic. This is not an Eldar topic.

Tex wrote:

Ace of Swords wrote:

Tex wrote:I said overspending because you have a guy saying he has the nemesis sword (20), canticle of absolution (25) interceptors (50) and a sarge (15) with possible nades (20) on his storm troopers.

That is a possible 130 power spent over 3 squads and a hero. That is grossly overspending power in t1 for GK. Of course, that's just my opinion I guess.

That's quite a standard power build for any race, especially considering the fact that the power sword is fully optional.

Of course, the other races can get 1 or 2 gens way before GKs because of their req costs.

Spending 130 power on 3 squads and a hero is not standard for ANY race in 1v1. Notice the parameter you missed.

SM

ASM=50 power
Shotgun or sniper= 15-30
Sarge= 25
T1 weapons= 20-35 depending on hero
T1 armor=20-25 power depending on hero

Total inbetween 135-165

The power costs jump between 120 - 150 power in T1.

Eldar 1 1 1 1 build

aspect and battlegear of shees and DA= 35
SCP=30
Rangers + upgrade= 40

This alone is 100 power and usually you get doom/fortune/MWB/champion's robe/Improved targetters/deathspinners

So their power can jump between 100-165 usually it's around 125-135 because everyone gets atleast 1 upgrade on their commander.

Orks

If you want to do it with 3 squads

Big shootasx2= 40
Nobsx2= 50
Armor + weapon or accessory= I think they all have 25 power cost so it's between 25 for 1 piece or 50 for two.

Total inbetween= 115-140

If you do a more standard build you either get the 2 nobs OR 2 big shootas so either 50 or 40 power (Nobs are better imo) and then either a 30 or 35 power unit + wargear(that's always between 20-25 power) That's abit less, but still between 90 to 125 power with armor+accessory.

Nids

Terma upgradesx2= 30
Hormas for counter melee= 15
Warriors= 30 (+barbred strangler 25)
And wargears which I think are all 25 power.

So that's a total of 100 power and 125 with the barbed strangler.

Chaos

Tics with various combinations:
ACx2= 50
ACx1=25
2 nade launcher= 40
1 nade launcher=20
1 nade launcher + 1AC= 45

So the final price depends on which combination you need.

NM or havocs or raptors= 30 or 40

And I usually play very heavy on wargear with chaos so I would say atleast 2 pieces are necessary (like combi-bolter + halo or harness if using raptors,PS with mucus or nades, sword of flame+armor of the warp)

All these wargears got between 25 to 30 power each
Halo=30
Combi=30
PS(PC)= 25
Mucus= 30
Nades(20 I think?)
Sword of flame= 25
Armor of the Warp= 30

So going from the minimum to the maximum the total is inbetween 105 to 150.

IG

Well this is the only faction that can get away just with spotters when playing 2 sents - 2 gm.



So yeah, I would say 135 is quite a standard investment this day, you also have to consider that GKs are not Nids,orks or IG, you are meant to have fewer squad and invest alot of in them.

Ok so almost all good feed back from the thread thx guys !!


So iv been using this build vs evreything i face to try to find whare it is no good. Dual t2 tanks gives it a problem ( transport + walker ) However THAT is alot of t2 power so u have plenty of time to get AV out vs it.

A lone tank is not proving to be a problem at all since u never run out of enregy on intorceptors u can land a nade and melley tanks down, getting a late purigation squade is not hard to do at all if u need extra AV. Korn dread is a hard nut to break however i have NEVER found a GK build that is good vs korn dread ( untill t3 of course ) . SM dread can be dealt with since it can not use it's ability. Wraithloard just gets kited till support is gone then owned. TBH im not really having problems with this vs tanks since your opponent is under so much telporting pressure, seems easy to isolate tanks and deal with them.

Tex is making some good points in this thread . The power used in t1 is a fair bit but nothing TOOOoooo crazy, however in t2 u have to spend power on the same units again. This means to teck to t3 u do need alot of power but again this seems to be a theam with the GK race they are just power hungry. getting a secound node up with a gen or 2 helps alot however this is not always a option. ( in fact it is ususaly not a option at all vs very good players )

I think a point tex is missing is that with this telporting abilitys and mass melley options squade whipes are a VERY real threat and are ,dare i say , almost un stopable. 1 small slip up from your opponet and he losses a squade , especialy light units like scouts . Last night i was playing vs Maestro using a `standard `SM build with the FC as leader and he was unabel to pose any threat to my army at all. his ninja capping scouts wher whiped very easy . Even with him retreating them at full HP when he saw the blob flanking.


Problems i am having with is is chaos. A full on melley chaos army is very hard to deal with and 2x aspiaring champs on ticks is a big problem in t1. Also VERY heavey eldar gate cheeze is hard to cap against dew to the armys speed , however come t2 the telporting intorceptors help out alot with capping. So far i have lost 2 matches wit this build both vs chaos. Lightning claws on the CL is alot of ouch for it since u can`t put him on his back.


I always forget to save replays however i will save some and post them hear so u guys can see it in action.

And by all means try it and let me know how ( if at all ) it works for u.

It`s my New go to build for GK.

P.S. it has had some fights vs very good players now as well and still preformed how i wanted it to.

SirSid wrote:... Korn dread is a hard nut to break however i have NEVER found a GK build that is good vs korn dread ( untill t3 of course ) . ...

How about a lasrhino? And keep your slow for after Bloodrage.

Dark Riku wrote:

SirSid wrote:... Korn dread is a hard nut to break however i have NEVER found a GK build that is good vs korn dread ( untill t3 of course ) . ...

How about a lasrhino? And keep your slow for after Bloodrage.

Or double rhinos, that actually works like a las cannon (maybe more damage even, but no snare), and can also snipe infantry.

Ace. You aren't understanding me clearly.

130 power ON THREE UNITS.

The original poster is saying that he goes four gens and uses ONLY THREE UNITS (plus hero) in tier one.

130 power ON THREE UNITS.

Not four units. Not five units.

That is why I said this isn't typical for ANY race.

Nice post Ace, too bad it's useless.

Yeah, yeah, but the whole premise is wrong anyway because going IST, SS, GKI is a flawed build right off the bat. Therefore I just assumed regarding balance we would discuss the far better build of IST, SS, IST, GKI. In which case all those builds Ace mentioned are relevant.

Asmon am I the only one slightly annoyed that you keep on giving short, almost trolling posts? Especially since you haven't played the game for a while now.

Leaving that aside, I am inclined to agree with what you are saying, rather than how you're saying it.

Ace: I believed you may have missed the point on this one. Also it has been a while since I saw Sergeant and Sniper Rifle on the same scout squad...

Panda wrote:Asmon am I the only one slightly annoyed that you keep on giving short, almost trolling posts? Especially since you haven't played the game for a while now.

No, everyone is fed up with that by now.

Yay i am not the only one who finds Asmon's presence to be offensive.

I use easily over 100 power on just 3 squads and a commander, but that doesn't mean you cant have 5 squads. Lotta things are req only after all.

So in this case it is less odd that he is spending 130 power and more the simple fact that just 4 squads is a riskier build for 1v1 than builds that utilize 5 or 6 squads. That is what i think anyway.

Dark Riku wrote:

SirSid wrote:... Korn dread is a hard nut to break however i have NEVER found a GK build that is good vs korn dread ( untill t3 of course ) . ...

How about a lasrhino? And keep your slow for after Bloodrage.

Been trying this last few days. It's working very well however im finding holding off on the lazz cannon till u need it is a must dew to resorses.

However i found a very VERY nice benifit to getting this unit in t1 with this build im preaching. Basicaly u keep it behind your units when forcing a melley power bash in t1 Then using it to pull your units back off the power farm to prevent retreating.

Sounds simpile and obvious however with this abilitys u have even in t1 u can use it as a trap just off the power farm when it apears to be overextended , force another retreat then finish your bash.

Also the transport in t1 is letting me counter the stupid and OP as fuck SM stratagey of get a flamer on tacks , lure army away with scouts then whipe power before the army can get back thare to save it. The speed and fact that all your units beat the tacks lets u counter this bash much eayser.

So starting to get use to the transport in t1 still not 100 % on it however , have lost it very easy a few times so still think it's a risk in 1v1

yeah it is hard to commit 20% of your t1 army to what amounts to a unit that does no damage. If you dont really capitalize on its mobility you can very easily end up wasting the population and resources.