Project Balance: Tyranid section

[Indrid]

He has MS Genestealers on him so yeah his health flew down, he also had literally no support though.

[Ace of Swords]

I was keeping an eye on that, and that guo started dropping fast only when paroxysm was activated, not before.

[Raffa]

No, because balance threads are always about what needs nerfing, and not what needs buffing.

d00d. Look in other topics and you find people asking for buffs, my point was nobody ever, like everrrr asks for nid buffs in any topic

On topic. I have personally not been trololold by the Doom in a long time. And that replay doesn't exactly show serious op to my mind...

[Caeltos]

No, because balance threads are always about what needs nerfing, and not what needs buffing.

d00d. Look in other topics and you find people asking for buffs, my point was nobody ever, like everrrr asks for nid buffs in any topic

Eldar is pretty much alike with nids. I actually discussed something about how balance post history and how feedback is perceived. It really hasn't changed much. I'm taking alot with a grain of salt.

[Torpid]

Regarding the K-nob not being useful against nids, I beg to differ. He's the strongest of all the ork heroes vs nids, you just need to use him a bit differently, for a start - get his knife (whoa, melee knob, you kiddin' me?).

Typical build of 2x shootas + painboy + defualt sluggas vs 2x terms + wars + horms. Now, your build will begin to vary dependent on what he gets next. At this point you will start to upgrade your knob with the knife and the combat kit (extra energy in t1 + health and regen [it's his most tanky armour and makes him viable in melee, whilegranting him the energy to use all of his abilities]). The knob can then hold his own against heroes in combat, and becomes a very effective tool to use against nids. You can overwhelm them with melee, at this point you've spent roughly the same as the nid (assuming he gets 1/2 wargears) but your composition is far stronger IN t1 (which is where orks are meant to struggle.

If he gets a second warrior/hormagaunts or ravs then you get another slugga boy squad, and with that painboy support they will roflstomp nid melee in t1 and t2. Upgraded heroes aren't much of a threat due to shootas + painboy + assassinate (you can kill heroes like the lictor in a second with that; no time to heal with tendrils). The termagants just get overwhelmed by melee and if he gets 3 termagants you just add a loota. Barbed strangler WB are useless because you can use the trippa shot ab ility from the knife to stun the BS model then charge them with the painboy. Add in the stunbomb (which is impossible to dodge when combined with aiming wotz dat or loota suppression) and you're dominating t1 hard.

Come t2 it only gets better for orks, suddenly your sluggas are extremely powerful and annihilate warriors and you can get kaboom for your K-nob which is extremely good since he will be fighting in melee anyway, and it is really strong with its ability knockback on high model tyranids anyway (besides this t1 is already too heavy to get stikks and IEDs just get detected). Weirdboy makes the tyranid melee blob of genestealers absolutely useless. The tyrant guard gets killed unfairly fast by fully upgraded sluggas with painboy support. Your shootas can hold their own vs terms, especially with weirdboy support. Not to mention the deff dread can be real problematic for a lictor due to his inherent lack of AV, and even against the other two nid heroes it usually guarantees one gen bash which lets you get to t3 to spam looted tanks which nids can't do too much about.

Warboss has it hardest because he simply isn't going to get into melee, personally I just go improved shoota for the bleed, contribution while sitting back as counter-initiation and a very strong melee hero counter + cybork for the great counter initiation + trophy rack just because it's fantastic. Warboss buffs make painboy + stormboy builds very effective vs nids though.

[Torpid]

I definitely don't see what all the fuss about the lictor is about though. Yes, he bleeds you well, but that's pretty much all he does. He has no ranged capabilities and dies VERY fast, even with feeder tendrils if you have one source of KB then he's dead without support.

Pheromones ARE extremely strong, but this is mainly because of how strong endless swarm is. I don't think pheromones would be a problem if endless swarm didn't exist. The only other problem with the LA that I see is his flesh hook being able to practically insta-wipe certain squads, or at least insta-force off. I really do think he shouldn't be able to pull squad leaders in; it's exploitative and makes flesh hook too strong.

With those two things out oft he way though I don't see what makes the LA OP, his bleed is great yeah, but that's basically all he does, he isn't half as strong a fighter as the HT, and he relies on flesh hook immensely, you can actually wait for him to hook a capping unit then initiate the big engagement while you know hook is on cooldown, that way he doesn't instantly force off your support hero. And yes it is balanced that you ought to do this because that's the primarily purpose of the LA - to counter enemy support units, including heroes, primarily via flesh hook.

I do think the leap has too little energy cost. It's very long range and does great damage and I think that would be more justified by simply making it cost more energy to use that ability.

Feeder tendrils are not overpowered at all, I personally prefer to use toxin miasma most of the time because the LA is not a frontal line battle unit, he will die very fast to focus fire or dedicated melee with or without FT, he is often used better if he has miasma and serves as counter-initiation vs enemy melee, or as a direct hero counter, it also makes him deal with kiting cappers better too which is great.

Scythes cost too much on the LA, 30 power and all they do is grant a pathetic amount of knockback? I used to get them vs eldar just because they are great insurance if your LA gets caught by shees, but 30 power for that knockback just isn't worth it, they should suppress for a longer amount of time OR grant greater knockback, or simply be reduced to 20 power.

[Bahamut]

well... a 360 kb and 81? power melee dps. can't rly say they're not worth their price

@ace: impact doesn't mean "omfg i can solo a whole army!!!!!!!!" but yes weird boy is capable of solo controlling an army with vomit and foot of gork/mork and warpath is absolutely another game changer

[Ace of Swords]

that's nothing, controlling doesn't mean forcing off, and all of the weirdboy abilities are way easier to avoid than a doom, without counting the fact that a fully upgraded wb costs sightly more than a doom.

[Sub_Zero]

Scythes cost too much on the LA, 30 power and all they do is grant a pathetic amount of knockback? I used to get them vs eldar just because they are great insurance if your LA gets caught by shees, but 30 power for that knockback just isn't worth it, they should suppress for a longer amount of time OR grant greater knockback, or simply be reduced to 20 power.

I am a big fan of this weapon. Love the ability so much. It gives you an edge in melee fights, it allows you to disrupt and supress ranged squads killing any kiting manouvers. And this weapon has great synergy with the 2nd armor. You disrupt and supress them and then use toxic blast (or how it is called). The only question I would like to ask is how much dps does this weapon do?

[Dark Riku]

Indrid I can't help to think that your standpoint is coming from a 3v3 point of view. :/
You can't approach the Tyranid blob when there is a Doom in it in a 1v1 game.
All your infantry just melts.

With those two things out oft he way though I don't see what makes the LA OP, his bleed is great yeah, but that's basically all he does, he isn't half as strong a fighter as the HT, and he relies on flesh hook immensely, ...

Almost everything about the LA is OP. Reinforcing in T1 for example. Not just with ES.
He does way more than what you say. Menacing Visage anyone? Such a BS upgrade.
Ow you have nobs? Nah, they are only here to cost you upkeep, nothing more.

[Torpid]

Well pheromones in t1 I don't find particularly useful as I run out of energy all the time - it necessitates me getting adrenal glands, which isn't all that bad, but that means no leap, which means worse t2 scaling due to the LA's fragility and more t1 investment.

Visage is perfectly fine lol, it's t3 and costs 50 power. More the fool to you for getting nobs vs an LA. Jeez, Riku, visage is one of the last wargears in this game to be OP, there are MANY crazy powerful t3 things that are better than that - purgatus, none shall fall, flamer termie fc, phase shift, time field, you know 'em. Then there are sigil and warp throw which are WAY better than visage and in t1/t2 respectively.

Scythes do ~ 65 PM dps just like feeding talons.

[Indrid]

Indrid I can't help to think that your standpoint is coming from a 3v3 point of view.

Well maybe the 1v1 players should start playing 1v1s regularly and submitting stats so I can see and comment on some of them.

yeyeyeyeye

[Ace of Swords]

Like this?

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... ats=global

[Bahamut]

Like this?

http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?pag ... ats=global

not enough data to account those stats yet. Warlock 31% win rate for example. means he needs hardcore buffs?

And, from big giant changelog from retail to 2.1:

Scything Talons damage increased from 51 to 65. that means 65/0.8 (total time between attacks) = 81.25 dps

[Indrid]

A good start (I entered a chunk of those stats into the system myself) but I don't consider a monthly tournament four times as regularly. Especially since Eerie may not be able to continue because of his new work commitments.

[FiSH]

The combat stats are nice and all, but you can't just look at the numbers.

Many points raised by Tex in the eldar balance section post were about what aspects of Eldar needs nerfs, and if not so then stating a wargear he thought OP before is fine. That said, Eldar's win ratio is sad on the global stats.

[Torpid]

Because eldar aren't actually OP, just certain aspects of the race are, but compared to races like orks, nids and even SM, that's nothing.

[Dark Riku]

Well pheromones in t1 I don't find particularly useful as I run out of energy all the time - it necessitates me getting adrenal glands, which isn't all that bad, but that means no leap, which means worse t2 scaling due to the LA's fragility and more t1 investment.

Learn to manage your energy. You can easily swap out wargears later on.
T1 investment is something nids are very good in...

there are MANY crazy powerful t3 things that are better than that - purgatus, none shall fall, flamer termie fc, phase shift, time field, you know 'em. Then there are sigil and warp throw which are WAY better than visage and in t1/t2 respectively.

Those things don't change that the LA is op and those arguments are completely beside the point that was being made.

Because eldar aren't actually OP, just certain aspects of the race are, but compared to races like orks, nids and even SM, that's nothing.

Some people beg the differ...

That said, Eldar's win ratio is sad on the global stats.

The stats are how they are because at lower level play things are different.
Race popularity is also something to consider.

[Caeltos]

The stats are how they are because at lower level play things are different.
Race popularity is also something to consider.

I wouldn't say that 13,86% (currently and still updating) is a bad figure for popularity. Considering that's 51 picks even. It's around 20 picks after the 2nd and 3rd place.

And who's to judge that it's based on lower level of play?

[Forestradio]

wow.

I had no idea so many aspects of nids play could cause so much widespread rage about everything from their starting unit to their superunit to their vehicle snare.

[Caeltos]

wow.

I had no idea so many aspects of nids play could cause so much widespread rage about everything from their starting unit to their superunit to their vehicle snare.

Well, technically you could just change one thing to effect another thing. Let's just say for an example, the Synapse Effect build time was increased from 15/20 to 60 the timings on the overall effiency from mid-game is hurt, allowing more counterplay during that time, which can be quite game-deciding.

So hench why I'm abit reluctant on straight on nerfs on all fronts, since that's not really the case. It's usually one thing that accelerates one things performance, find the issue and you can find a work-around & fix for it hopefully.

Going full-wrath nerfhammer on everything means global reduction on multiple builds, functionalities and timings and have-you, meaning the ultimate demise of a race in their competetive enviroment.

[Torpid]

Scything Talons damage increased from 51 to 65. that means 65/0.8 (total time between attacks) = 81.25 dps

Whoa, I never noticed that, that's insane. 81power melee dps in t1? , worth 30 power for sure.

[Cyris]

Woah, I look away for a day and this explodes all over! I gotta admit, I rarely ever see nids played, so I'm surprised to see so much in here. I guess Eldar are similar in that regard?

[PhatE]

There's nothing really stopping the Hive tyrant at all unless you bait them into a point black loota burst. But it's not even that...HE NEVER STOPS CHARGING!

The hive Tyrant can also stop charging due to terrain and sometimes even to many units being in the way.

Whilst this is true (there has the be a huge amount for this to happen or the knockbacked unit gets caught twice which is quite rare) it's not what I was talking about when I said that he never stops charging. Even if there's a chance that he can get stuck on many units having roar whilst he charges and then can continue to charge removes this impediment.

Every Ork hero has a simple way to stop HT's charge. KN and WB can stun him, MB just has to teleport under his bare jaws...

If by simple you mean pressing a key in perfect conditions then sure it's simple. Other than that it just doesn't work that way. You cannot predict when the player is going to charge meaning you can't be ready for it. You can only guess when it's going to happen.

By that reasoning the Warboss has to be in front of the HT at all times, know the charge path and have big stomp. Abilities can still be used after the stun has happened such as when Stormboyz jump warpspiders but still teleport away.

Kommando has to do the same, it's a big ask.

The mek has to be directly in front so that he can get caught on the charge.

In response to that Torpid I'm trying to avoid quoting yours since this and the previous posts have or are going to be quite large themselves.

Painboy is not standard or typical as you put it against Tyranids. He's not standard against a lot of races (at least not for opening builds).

If you're referring to direct combat then no the Kommando doesn't hold his own against 2 of those heroes. The RA I'm not entirely sure how even it is. The best way I've seen him be useful in T1 is when he has stikkbombs. That's pretty good and when special shoota comes out then it's a breath of fresh air since people are still blobbing and not splitting. Kaboom is probably one of those wargears which I'm yet to see work well. It may or may not be the most prudent of choices.

Seeing Ravs does not warrant getting another level one starting unit that's melee with relatively low health per model. Nor does any Tyranid player ever get 2 warriors unless they left it on overwatch. The passive leap pretty much guarantees the death of sluggaz, warriors just run back whilst hormagaunts rip your squad to pieces. No chance of synaptic shock. Ravenors aren't even left in melee these days making melee heavy builds all the more harder.

Overwhelming a Tyranid with melee doesn't work the majority of the time. Tex has suggested to me that 2 storm boyz is quite decent come tier 2 which I'm yet to try so there isn't a verdict for me as of yet. There are the slimmest amounts of situations, outside of the previous sentence, where you can do that when there are toxin sacs and a barbed strangler. The synergy is just too great you suffer massive bleed and end up spending your money only on keeping your army alive. Little room for upgrades or saving for T2.

[Torpid]

Painboy isn't standard vs nids? Well he bloody well ought to be, all that power melee dps, a great source of bleed for the nids, without bleeding yourself and it actually allows your sluggas to fight in melee without dying in 2seconds!

Nids do go two warriors sometimes, one in melee, one for BS, it's very strong in t1 and can end the game there, however BSWB are not very good vs the knob due to his knife being able to stun the BS model, then he can tie them up himself.

Sluggas are extremely viable vs nids, the only race whose melee can fight tyranid melee is orks and that's due to the weirdboy making nid melee 100% useless and slugga boyz become beastly in t2. Double sluggas run rampant in t2 vs nids, especially with PB support. You're obviously going about this MU wrong. You are not going to be playing the offensive until t2. Raveners cannot beat sluggas, raveners have power melee, they are not amazing vs orks at all, and will bleed him a lot, just make sure you don't blob your entire army and that second slugga will counter initiate the ravs fine. Also, if he gets ravs you can get double nobs on your shoota because it doesn't matter if you spend more power than the nid, what will he get genes - countered by weirdboy (40 power), tyrant guard - countered by slugga nobs (25-50 power), zoans - countered by deff dread or stormboys (60 power) or you could just stun it and charge it with the knob and kill it with assassinate by infiltrated into the base...

Special shoota isn't great vs nids, synapse prevents bleed from it and it requires him to be close, honestly I find the knife to be the best, it can still help pop synapse models in t2, and counter heroes. I wasn't referring to the knob soloing heroes either, I would use the painboy+knob, keep the knob infiltrated and back, and assassinate him when his hp is low, he won't detect the knob as the hero usually charges, if he doesn't then just stunbomb + AWD the warriors and wail on them with painboy + shootas + knob, while one slugga fights horms under painboy heal, and the other slugga counter-initiates ravs/fights more horms/ties up terms. The warriors will die far sooner than his herocan do anything to your units, that's when you stun his hero with your knob and focus fire him while sending knob into retreat path for assassinate.

I'm not having it, I have no trouble with this MU

[Kvek]

I'm not having it, I have no trouble with this MU

From what i know, you play vs nids that aren't on your skill level, just stomping random pubs.

[Torpid]

Ork/Nid pubs can more than handle my GK...

[Cyris]

Nids were the first non-SM race I mained in my trek through maining each of the factions in turn. When I started, it was right before Endless Swarm upgrade was added, and I stopped a little after the VC Fex fotm nerf. I've played them on and off since then, but have very rarely fought against them. Nids seem to me to be the absolute least played faction in the game, so it's hard for me to have feedback that comes from both sides of the matchup.

In any case, here are some of my thoughts on Nids!

1- Endless Swarm makes Nids feel like Nids. They are a faction I associate with being swarmy and numerous, so if balanced gameplay can be found that includes this upgrade, horray!
1a - If the Endless Swarm upgrade is overpowered, I'd hope for things like: cost change, base unit potency changes, T2 Warrior synapse nerfs, upkeep increases etc. Keep the mechanic, it is so utterly fluffy.

2- Termagaunts are still overpowered, hormagaunts are still underpowered. Most specifically the T1 upgrades cost/benefit ratios. 10% damage and health and leap as an upgrade is prolly balanced against the SNARE alone on toxin sacks for an equal price point, but termagaunts also get damage and their upgrade costs less. I'd really, really like to see this get some attention. Big shoots are totaly fine at 20 power, toxin sacks could be 20 power too.

3- The T3 broodleaders are an upgrade that I think goes against what makes nids challenging to play, and removes a very reasonable counter to the race (aim for the Warriors). The Endless Swarm upgrade, plus the health scaling with Tier, have more then made gaunts have relevance in each phase of the game. The broodleaders push this too far imo. I won't be sad if they go away.

4- I wouldn't mind LA getting a range reduction in flesh hook as long as it's paired with some other buffs.

5- LA weapons that are not feeder tendrils are bad. Feeder Tendrils might be OP, but his other options are all UP. Change em all imo, but if feeder tendrils gets nerfed, I really pray for a wargear buff on something else that makes him able to off-tank for a little while, which the aspect of feeder tendrils that I enjoy.

6- RA tunnels are totally overpowered in all the way that webway gates are. But since webway gates are "fine", I think tunnels are too. Perhaps a small CD increase would be good though.

7- The Doom is a unit that I never use because it has too many tooltips and skills for a T3 unit. I think his balance and playability would be increased by having him have a much smaller number of starting abilities, and need to make upgrades to unlock more, like Wierdboy/Libby.

8- VC Fex is bad. Other two fexes are strong but don't over-preform for their incredibly high cost/upkeep.

9- Infestation could lose the summons and I'd still use it as a fun creep-tumor mechanic.

10- Ravaner brood is still an awkward unit. Would really, REALLY like to see the tunneling upgrade be mutually exclusive to devaouers (or however they are spelled). Make it increase health and/or melee damage in addition to the speed.

11- I must admit that genestealers are nuts strong. Get just enough disruption in your army to let them get to melee, and you just win soooooo hard.

12- I'd like to see T2 Warrior synapse receive another small nerf. The potency swing is still too high, though the mechanic feels right as far as playstyle and theme.

Hope that helps!

[Tex]

Well, I am quickly realizing a few things about nids, but I am not learning nearly enough in the time frame that I have set. I am currently sitting at 4(?) losses and fast approaching the 30 win mark, so I will extend this thing to 50 wins.

Some notes of interest so far...

I have found that nid T2 could very well be the best in the game, and it is largely due to zoanthropes. The snare they have is definitely on the OP bubble. Right now the only saving grace is that it still bugs out against transports that have units inside.

Tyrant guards supported by rippers and zoans is something I still can't quite figure out how to counter if I was the other player. This is a crazy thing to deal with and I will continue to exploit it lol.

Hellfire bolter rounds are stupidly hard for nids to deal with... GOOD GOD!

Synapse towers aren't as bad as I thought they were before. They give good xp and aren't crazy hard to take down.

Raveners are garbage unless you use them with HT or go for a reinforce/mass strat with RA and global usage.

Barbed strangler carnifex is garbage.

Thornback fex is largely unkillable. How does anyone even lose one of these?


More replays on the way!

[Bahamut]

sluggas with UYC and a deff dread can easily destroy a TG Yeah metroid, i'm looking at you!

Hey Tex, what's a reinforce/mass strat with RA? can't quite figure that out