Dawn of War Codex

Lesten wrote:But that sounds like you agree that it's OP, just that other things are more OP so the less OP things shouldn't get fixed. Shouldn't we fix all things that are OP or UP?

If u want to catch my words... the point is that as topic showed, people dont even agree if TM is or not OP. There are much more obvious OP things in this game maybe it would be better to discuss them not TM?

Sturnn wrote:If u want to catch my words... the point is that as topic showed, people dont even agree if TM is or not OP. There are much more obvious OP things in this game maybe it would be better to discuss them not TM?

Well, that's kind of the point of the thread. If everyone agreed then there would be no need for this topic at all. Every thread about something being OP or UP (or just balance in general) is gonna have a few people disagreeing with arguments for and against.

That said, I agree with you that there are things less balanced than the Techmarine that could be discussed (though I guess I'm one of the few who thinks the game is actually *fairly* balanced as it is). But since someone started a thread about the TM, we should discuss the TM. Nothing's stopping us from starting new threads and discussing other issues as well
(edit: I also agree with you that this thread has come as far as it can, the arguments are all there, let's move on)

Ok, I'll be quiet now. Don't think I can contribute anything else to the TM discussion

Forestradio wrote:

Caeltos wrote:Stop making me delay 2.5 more then I already have to with this jibberyabber scadoodling.

Caeltos’ journal, January 29th, 2016

Caeltos' journal, January 29th 2017

People are still asking about 2.5! I can't tell them that I haven't even started on it yet. My only option is to tell them "Soon". I don't know how much longer that will hold them off because now all they do is sit there and:

(I kid Caeltos, we <3 you)

Anyway, back on TM. I'm still pretty unconvinced about this bionics OP talk. I've said from the start that it needs a CD increase, but otherwise I haven't seen the reps tell me otherwise.

Could we take a look at his melee build? I feel that, while the individual pieces are pretty cheap (310/60 for the set), I don't feel like it performs up to snuff. His damage is fine, but not being KB immune means that engaging in melee is an iffy proposition because special chances are not on your side.

Atlas wrote:Could we take a look at his melee build? I feel that, while the individual pieces are pretty cheap (310/60 for the set), I don't feel like it performs up to snuff. His damage is fine, but not being KB immune means that engaging in melee is an iffy proposition because special chances are not on your side.

Perhaps the shield could provide KB immunity when the axe is equipped. If this is done, a minor cost increase to the shield (to 25 power) would be in order. I suggest tying the benefit to the axe because if it was tied to bionics instead, you could have a beast (anti-melee, anti-knockback) of a ranged TM. Hell, you'd almost have a weak Kustom Force Field.

To be honest after a few days I've come up with the definitive proof that the tm is indeed OP through a complex mathematical formula

TM = OP^2

Ace of Swords wrote:To be honest after a few days I've come up with the definitive proof that the tm is indeed OP through a complex mathematical formula

TM = OP^2

I'm Asian and I can confirm that this is correct.

You know what isn't OP about the TM? The refractor shield keybind. Need to press the awkward Y key before you can activate it on gridkeys, very annoying. Is there any way to shift the icon to the left a bit?

You can do that yourself in the custom keybindings file. I forgot the name but if you go through your files you will recognize it by its name.

Cheekie Monkie wrote:You know what isn't OP about the TM? The refractor shield keybind. Need to press the awkward Y key before you can activate it on gridkeys, very annoying. Is there any way to shift the icon to the left a bit?

_keydefaults.lua

At my games/dow2 retri/settings. You can change any quick keys you want by editing the file and then removing the _ from before the name. And don't worry about messing anything up, the game will automatically recreate the _keydefaults.lua file each time you run the game.

Deuce Bigalow wrote:

Atlas wrote:Could we take a look at his melee build? I feel that, while the individual pieces are pretty cheap (310/60 for the set), I don't feel like it performs up to snuff. His damage is fine, but not being KB immune means that engaging in melee is an iffy proposition because special chances are not on your side.

Perhaps the shield could provide KB immunity when the axe is equipped. If this is done, a minor cost increase to the shield (to 25 power) would be in order. I suggest tying the benefit to the axe because if it was tied to bionics instead, you could have a beast (anti-melee, anti-knockback) of a ranged TM. Hell, you'd almost have a weak Kustom Force Field.

No. One reason that pops into my head is that it would make FC a non-factor.

@Lesten: Starting with the maps ALONE, this game is FAAAAAAAR from being even a mile close to 'fairly balanced.' Fairly balanced means that players don't have to be scared of maining one race in MRTS, instead of having to have those LAs, HTs, RAs, CLs, and TMs as backup plans. Fairly balanced also means that one shouldn't get giddy inside when they land certain spots in certain maps.

Fairly balanced is NOT giving a hero that can call down dreads and place turrets an armor that gives +15% melee dmg, has a stupid skill attached to it, AND gives HP/s. Fairly balanced is also NOT giving that very same hero a refractor shield and a weapon that does power melee damage... that drains motherfucking energy at that. Fairly balanced is NOT having ALL that shit on a hero that is labeled as "DEFENSE."

Give KN's betta bomba kitt +15% melee dmg, and give his knife 100 power melee dmg. See how fast I climb that ladder.

^ You are looking at TM in one dimensional imo. Seeing for what he does and completely disregarding how other players approach him. The only thing that needs to happen is that Powerful sweep needs to be toned done.

I would like if the Beacon and the Turret where in t2 for team games but that is only me atm. Other than that His axes sucks ass without the Bionic and the refractor upgrades. Complaining about a melee techmarine when its not that great... shame on you. A melee techmarine loses his insane Range DPS and VS HI plasma gun is the way to go period. If you are vs nids, plasma gun. VS chaos and SM, plasma gun. VS IG you don't really need a weapon upgrade (but MCB/melta gun is a definite option). Orks? MCB and plasma for nobs. Eldar? MCB. Axe doesn't have a really place unless you are trying to have fun.

Honestly i was thinking the Axe for the techmarine needed a buff to be considered in a competitive match. And the buff i had in mind required the player to have an accessory for the techmarine. If the Techmarine had the Axe and his nades, the nades would silence and suppress the affected squads.

If he had the reactor field and the Axe there would be a chargeable ability. The Techmarine would have to have taken a certain amount of damage and have a certain amount of energy to cause a stun. And the Stun duration would increase based on how much energy the techmarine had when the ability was used.

But i was just brainstorming.

Tranca wrote:Fairly balanced is NOT giving a hero that can call down dreads and place turrets an armor that gives +15% melee dmg, has a stupid skill attached to it, AND gives HP/s. Fairly balanced is also NOT giving that very same hero a refractor shield and a weapon that does power melee damage... that drains motherfucking energy at that. Fairly balanced is NOT having ALL that shit on a hero that is labeled as "DEFENSE."

Looks more than balanced to me. But what do I know?

Melee TM feels meh in comparison to both his ranged builds and other melee SM heroes. He doesn't support infantry as well as the apo (rites > bionics in terms of support) and he's nowhere near the solo powerhouse as the FC, due to a lack of battlecry, alacrity, KB immunity and damage. It doesn't offer synergy with grenades like the MCB, nor does it have the terrifying bleed potential of the plasma gun, which leaves it very situational. Maybe I'd consider it vs ASM's and a halo FC? If that wasn't enough, his axe gimps his repair support as he's not shooting anything in return.

Dark Riku wrote:

Tranca wrote:Fairly balanced is NOT giving a hero that can call down dreads and place turrets an armor that gives +15% melee dmg, has a stupid skill attached to it, AND gives HP/s. Fairly balanced is also NOT giving that very same hero a refractor shield and a weapon that does power melee damage... that drains motherfucking energy at that. Fairly balanced is NOT having ALL that shit on a hero that is labeled as "DEFENSE."

Looks more than balanced to me. But what do I know?

Ewe noe nuffink, Dark Riku.

It's not about whether the setup is great, or not... which, from a 'multi' dimensional perspective, I can see how that setup would completely rape face...
It's about the fact that the setup itself, for what it gives, and who it gives it to, is broken. The sad thing is, like you said, he already has even stronger answers for his MUs.

Inb4: There are a ton of pros who have tried this setup a million times etc etc etc. Right. There are a ton of pros that say stikkbommaz are the shizznit, but they never get them... ever... even when stikkbommaz would be an obvious unit choice. Does that mean that stikkbommaz are underpowered, or overpowered?

It's a matter of perspective. And, in my perspective, TM has way too much utility... just waaaaaaaaaay too much utility. And, what saddens me most, is that it's not even skill-based utility. It seems more flow-charty than anything. He has a simple, but potent answer for everything.

Here: https://dawnofwar.info/esl/stats

That link includes faction win-ratio according to game-length. Tell me in which of those graphs SM has the lowest % of all races.
I'll give you a hint: None.

I know SM is getting nerfed a bit this next patch. And, that will hopefully help with TM. But, as it stands, shame on you for defending an obviously broken hero that belongs to a race that is obviously strong as fuck.

Tranca wrote:It's not about whether the setup is great, or not... which, from a 'multi' dimensional perspective, I can see how that setup would completely rape face...
It's about the fact that the setup itself, for what it gives, and who it gives it to, is broken. The sad thing is, like you said, he already has even stronger answers for his MUs.

Inb4: There are a ton of pros who have tried this setup a million times etc etc etc. Right. There are a ton of pros that say stikkbommaz are the shizznit, but they never get them... ever... even when stikkbommaz would be an obvious unit choice. Does that mean that stikkbommaz are underpowered, or overpowered?

It's a matter of perspective. And, in my perspective, TM has way too much utility... just waaaaaaaaaay too much utility. And, what saddens me most, is that it's not even skill-based utility. It seems more flow-charty than anything. He has a simple, but potent answer for everything.

Here: https://dawnofwar.info/esl/stats

That link includes faction win-ratio according to game-length. Tell me in which of those graphs SM has the lowest % of all races.
I'll give you a hint: None.

I know SM is getting nerfed a bit this next patch. And, that will hopefully help with TM. But, as it stands, shame on you for defending an obviously broken hero that belongs to a race that is obviously strong as fuck.

According to your stats FC/WB and CL are the most broken heroes ever, not the TM.

Ace of Swords wrote:

Tranca wrote:
That link includes faction win-ratio according to game-length. Tell me in which of those graphs SM has the lowest % of all races.
I'll give you a hint: None.

I know SM is getting nerfed a bit this next patch. And, that will hopefully help with TM. But, as it stands, shame on you for defending an obviously broken hero that belongs to a race that is obviously strong as fuck.

According to your stats FC/WB and CL are the most broken heroes ever, not the TM.

...link had nothing to do with heor popularity. Stay on topic, plex.

I need to learn how to use the features on the post thing... >_>

TM thread, why else bring in SM stats then?
And even then you're basing something on that little amount of stats with skill levels all over the place?

Imma just stop, 'cus you all have your clique and I'm not trying to start any shit.

Techmarine super balanced.

Peace.

Lots of people disagreeing with you = clique? What the actual fuck.
Maybe it's because most people actually think you are wrong? Don't you think that's the explanation that makes the most sense instead?

Dark Riku wrote:Lots of people disagreeing with you = clique? What the actual fuck.
Maybe it's because most people actually think you are wrong? Don't you think that's the explanation that makes the most sense instead?

I say TM has too much utility by outlining his melee setup. People say "no... his melee setup is weak. he has stronger setups. u kno noffin"
Thanks for strengthening my point about his stupid amount of utility? o_O

I bring in a graph to demonstrate that SM is a strong race... strong enough to turn TM into an OP hero. What's Sword's response?
"derrr cl wb r stronkest acording 2 u" <- zero contribution.

What's your response? "derrr wut dat graf have do wit TM?"

Nothing... other that the painfully obvious fact that it has to do with SPACE MARINES NOT BEING WEAK AT ANY PARTICULAR TIME IN THE GAME AND HOW THIS JUST MAKES TM ALL THE MORE POWERFUL.

But, my man, what the actual fuck, right?

PS: I'd say chill out with the attitude, 'cus I've been nothing but nice. But, shit... read this post, right? lmao

This time for real, though. Peace.

Eagerly awaiting the next patch to see what changes will be made. ^_^

Tranca wrote:I say TM has too much utility by outlining his melee setup. People say "no... his melee setup is weak. he has stronger setups. u kno noffin"
Thanks for strengthening my point about his stupid amount of utility? o_O

People probably disagreeing with you with poor choice of words.
Not going to read through the whole thread to reply to this one. Not worth the time.

Tranca wrote:I bring in a graph to demonstrate that SM is a strong race... strong enough to turn TM into an OP hero. What's Sword's response?
"derrr cl wb r stronkest acording 2 u" <- zero contribution.

Ace trying to explain those graphs mean jack shit, like I did later on.

Tranca wrote:What's your response? "derrr wut dat graf have do wit TM?"

Nothing... other that the painfully obvious fact that it has to do with SPACE MARINES NOT BEING WEAK AT ANY PARTICULAR TIME IN THE GAME AND HOW THIS JUST MAKES TM ALL THE MORE POWERFUL.

Because you are contradicting yourself. You say it's not about the hero stats but you bring in faction stats which are made up of all the 3 heroes...

Tranca wrote:But, my man, what the actual fuck, right?

Yeah, Indeed. Expecially since all this is coming from someone who appears to have just recently started playing this game.

Tranca wrote:PS: I'd say chill out with the attitude, 'cus I've been nothing but nice. But, shit... read this post, right? lmao

What attitude? °_O

Tranca wrote:This time for real, though. Peace.

Cya.

All this on a troll thread XD Well done.

Dark Riku wrote:All this on a troll thread XD Well done.

ON A SERIOUS NOTE

where are all the op Techmarines hiding? Where?

Last time i checked, here's a list of ppl who play tm with any sort of regularity:
a) Toilailee (semi-active)
b) Atlas
c) Aguxyz
d) Myself
e) Adila
f) Kryptoleo

if i left anyone out don't be offended i just cba to list everyone i ever saw playing some games with this hero...

so maybe post some replays instead of making useless theorycraft and comparison that make no sense. Post a replay, of up nids losing to op bionics (avoiding speed 5 hero with speed 6+ units is so hard). Post a replay, of buying that up mcb and it not performing for cost (it does, it's a BALANCED wargear, something long forgotten in the current meta of wargear that's automatically purchased regardless of situation))

so yeah, post a replay. Let's see the op tm?

Final warnings, keep it clean. If I see any more taunting/unhelpful posts I'm just going to start deleting them.

Would love to see some reps of TM though.

Being real, bionics baiting is a real thing. I've only had like one/two players actually bait me which is really odd. I'd imagine this will become a more pronounced thing as TM games go on.

Atlas wrote:Being real, bionics baiting is a real thing. I've only had like one/two players actually bait me which is really odd. I'd imagine this will become a more pronounced thing as TM games go on.

Not sure how you can bait the sweep, it activates so fast.
Btw, is it intended that he can activate and execute the sweep while knocked on his ass?

It's one amongst many abilities that doesn't require the animation to be played to work. Thus TM can use it also while capturing points.

Tranca wrote:

Ace of Swords wrote:

Tranca wrote:
That link includes faction win-ratio according to game-length. Tell me in which of those graphs SM has the lowest % of all races.
I'll give you a hint: None.

I know SM is getting nerfed a bit this next patch. And, that will hopefully help with TM. But, as it stands, shame on you for defending an obviously broken hero that belongs to a race that is obviously strong as fuck.

According to your stats FC/WB and CL are the most broken heroes ever, not the TM.

...link had nothing to do with heor popularity. Stay on topic, plex.

I need to learn how to use the features on the post thing... >_>

I mean man, it's useless talking, especially when most people know there are far more broken wargears and heroes, with the N°1 right now being the BC, however I'll be happy if you 1v1 me with your tm to show me all those super broken things, I can play any race you want me to.

One think which I want to address is the artificer's armour, which is too easily overlooked and overshadowed by bionics. With the now near ubiquity of detection across all races, (buffed sentinels, dire avengers), mines become very situational and unreliable. I suggest increasing the energy cost of mines, but yet still allowing it to trigger when detected, thus serving as an anti melee tool even when detected.

I would vote for throwing them like Mek Boy mines with less damage. As long as it knockbacks and suppresses, I don't care about the damage.

artificer armor is fine, nothing else to add

it already scales better than bionics with higher hp and hp regen, and mines are way more useful in the late game than anything bionics can give, lay them in retreat path or to safeguard your flanks as well as to guard important points, plus they have a vehicle snare that's extremely potent

they are also the best retreat killer the tm has outside of scout nades and dreads

and no mine should go off in the presence of detectors, the only ones that do so are k nob/catas traps but those are either t2 or much more expensive than things like mek mines, tm mines, and ra burrow traps

Some reps attached, 2 1v1s and 1 2v2

https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/1031
https://www.dawnofwar.info/esl/match/522
http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=310077