Veteran Marines: Put in the Stronghold?

[Arbit]

also bloodletter's jumps don't knockback,

Which is actually better vs setupteams ~~

But better against everything else?

And what's the reasoning behind no knockback being superior against setups? I know that if I retreat as soon as the letters touch the setup team then they will instantaneously unsetup and I can retreat. With the knockback, they get thrown to the ground and if I don't retreat immediately, there's a chance they'll be chainknockbacked until they die. It basically ensures that the ASM will get some retreat modifier-enhanced hits in while they're getting up.

Do letters get knockback immunity for a few seconds after they jump like ASM do, too?

[Faultron]

also bloodletter's jumps don't knockback,

Which is actually better vs setupteams ~~

But better against everything else?

And what's the reasoning behind no knockback being superior against setups? I know that if I retreat as soon as the letters touch the setup team then they will instantaneously unsetup and I can retreat. With the knockback, they get thrown to the ground and if I don't retreat immediately, there's a chance they'll be chainknockbacked until they die. It basically ensures that the ASM will get some retreat modifier-enhanced hits in while they're getting up.

Do letters get knockback immunity for a few seconds after they jump like ASM do, too?

when the setup team is knockbacked you can insta retreat without sit like duck, cos the squad is auto reset no time lost.so you have to aim behind the setup team if you can and avoid knockback on them, to deal dmg with ASM:)

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the knockback cuts both ways. if they don't retreat fast enough you're nearly guaranteed a couple of hits with the blood letters. on the other hand knockback causes them to be desetup for longer if they don't retreat.

[Asmon]

Do letters get knockback immunity for a few seconds after they jump like ASM do, too?

For an instant, like any teleporting unit.

[Dark Riku]

Torpid you jut keep saying the same things that everyone already knows with no actual message over and over again without making any points whatsoever.

Furthermore the amount of times I have got wipes due to those bolt pistols on the asm are pretty innumerable, their ranged dps isn't negligible.

Not like the bloodletter in a case like this would have already annihilated the unit due to, you know, way freaking higher (power) melee dps ...

I have no words for this. "asm ranged dps not negligible" I'm seriously stunned.

[Ace of Swords]

And what's the reasoning behind no knockback being superior against setups?

PRO TIP RIGHT THERE

You can retreat before they land the jump and get basically 0 damage.



Also vanguard is extremely lacking for a T3 unit that doesn't actually add a unit to your rooster, actually, it nerfs down your core unit back to level 1 and no melta, i'd rather have them as a separate and unique unit in T3 with it's own perks since the current SM late game is no doubt the worst and all their option are hardcountered by AV sources.

Oh and please do not even start in saying how it's not the worst, both gk and chaos termies, seer council, doom,flash gitz and kaserkins are way superior and for sure better supported by their own faction than SM termies (which are also the most expensive to reinforce), the LR was never good in 1v1, and now in team games chaos which had arguabily the 'old' worst T3 has access to a landraider themselves and also to a way and way better guo (it's probably the best super unit after the doom right now).

[crazyman64335]

just an idea from a non space marine player, how about vans keep their melta bomb upgrade? Just throwing ideas out there.

[Torpid]

Furthermore the amount of times I have got wipes due to those bolt pistols on the asm are pretty innumerable, their ranged dps isn't negligible.

Not like the bloodletter in a case like this would have already annihilated the unit due to, you know, way freaking higher (power) melee dps ...

PRO TIP RIGHT THERE
You can see the bloodletters teleporting in before they even teleport, just like you can see asm jumping a set-up team before they land. So you can just retreat or move your devs beforehand, or move units over to counter-initiate, same thing applies except it's even easier to counter-initiate due to the lack of knockback and the fact you can deal with it with aoe.

Anyway we're missing the main point anyway, ASM you already have in t1, you only need to upgrade them in t2, they aren't a separate squad purchase and that's great because effectively you get the vanguard/razorback or bloodletters/crusher out sooner.

[Ace of Swords]

I hope you are joking, you can't de-setup and move out the dev before the bloodletters come, and you can't aoe them because they teleport ON your dev, and when they come in they will immediately start dps and easily taking down 2 dev models if not the whole squad, once that's done you can phase shift and move the rest of your army in or just straight move your whole army in since the devs are either already dead or out of the fight and you can easily bring further melee support, if you do this with asm the dev won't even lose a model, let alone get wiped, while unless you are an apo you won't have any kind of support, and move in the scouts will result in huge model losses before even reaching shotgun range, feeding alot of xp, losing lots of req and in the end losing the engagment.

[Sub_Zero]

And retarded assault marines sometimes do their passive leap when they jumped on a unit. Since it does no damage it works not in favour of sm player. To prevent it you have to click attack again after they landed.

[Asmon]

And retarded assault marines sometimes do their passive leap when they jumped on a unit. Since it does no damage it works not in favour of sm player. To prevent it you have to click attack again after they landed.

Ooooh so much micro.

[Arbit]

AoS, why are the scouts in your hypothetical situation standing around where they will get focused instead of in a spot to protect the devs? Your hypothetical seems to revolve around the SM player having no melee counter to bloodletters or using them incredibly poorly, then you mention ASM and all of sudden jump troops are auto-countered without any need for explanation.

[Faultron]

And what's the reasoning behind no knockback being superior against setups?

PRO TIP RIGHT THERE

You can retreat before they land the jump and get basically 0 damage.



Also vanguard is extremely lacking for a T3 unit that doesn't actually add a unit to your rooster, actually, it nerfs down your core unit back to level 1 and no melta, i'd rather have them as a separate and unique unit in T3 with it's own perks since the current SM late game is no doubt the worst and all their option are hardcountered by AV sources.

Oh and please do not even start in saying how it's not the worst, both gk and chaos termies, seer council, doom,flash gitz and kaserkins are way superior and for sure better supported by their own faction than SM termies (which are also the most expensive to reinforce), the LR was never good in 1v1, and now in team games chaos which had arguabily the 'old' worst T3 has access to a landraider themselves and also to a way and way better guo (it's probably the best super unit after the doom right now).

my opinion exactly the same about SM.(i like to play with T2 only even if enemy has T3)

[sk4zi]

i also think that the superior T3 of SM in Retail is completely gone...

Terms are much easier countered now and are no more unique to SM
almost every Race got a very good counter to them for present - exept SM themselves.

the Landraider is countered with the same stuff, the libby (support for terms) was nerfed.

The other Terms are all cheaper in some kind. (reinforce and/or Purchase)


Vanguard at T2 like Riku is suggesting, is really not OP compared to other dedicated melee squads.

another possibility is to buff them more.
e.g.:
their passive leap does kb
a short dmg immunity after the jump
200 energy
Melee skill +10
Courage bonus

... something what makes them feel like having Elite marines

keep in mind that they have to face T3 units.

[Faultron]

i also think that the superior T3 of SM in Retail is completely gone...

Terms are much easier countered now and are no more unique to SM
almost every Race got a very good counter to them for present - exept SM themselves.

the Landraider is countered with the same stuff, the libby (support for terms) was nerfed.

The other Terms are all cheaper in some kind. (reinforce and/or Purchase)


Vanguard at T2 like Riku is suggesting, is really not OP compared to other dedicated melee squads.

another possibility is to buff them more.


e.g.:
their passive leap does kb
a short dmg immunity after the jump
200 energy
Melee skill +10
Courage bonus

... something what makes them feel like having Elite marines

keep in mind that they have to face T3 units.

ASM/Vanguard is not dedicated melee. his primary target is vehicles and ranged units, and he is succesfull with this in T3 too.He is more of support unit then ,rambo mode' dedicated melee.He not supposed to be to be good alone vs all and in all situations.

[Sub_Zero]

Vanguards are supposed to fight melee units.

[Faultron]

and he can fight, but not win vs everybody (alone) what is fine.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

and he can fight, but not win vs everybody (alone) what is fine.

My poor MoK CSM disagrees.

[Faultron]

and he can fight, but not win vs everybody (alone) what is fine.

My poor MoK CSM disagrees.

ASM T2 full cost:450/50+150/50=600/100

MoK T2 full cost:400+230/70=630/70

and mok is ranged CSM before the T2 upgrade, it is not a 100% dedicated melee unit, he is ranged in T1 just for the lulz.
and as i know MoK CSM beat ASM

and vanguard T3 beats a T2 unit well dats normal since vanguard is a little different unit, then asm, +they still dont beat T3 elite melee units

And chaos doesnt lack melee:)

[Dark Riku]

and he can fight, but not win vs everybody (alone) what is fine.

My poor MoK CSM disagrees.

How can your poor csm disagree? Faultron states that Vangaurd can win vs some units and lose vs others... Please share how your KCSM reason this to be untrue?! °_O

+1 to Faultrons last post.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Nevermind, I misread the Faultron's post.

Sorry.

Still Vanguard Veterans win against MoK CSM if they use the Merciless Strike.

[Dark Riku]

Still Vanguard Veterans win against MoK CSM if they use the Merciless Strike.

And this adds what exactly to the discussion?
Unless you think that KCSM should win that fight cuz that would be hilarious

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Still Vanguard Veterans win against MoK CSM if they use the Merciless Strike.

And this adds what exactly to the discussion?
Unless you think that KCSM should win that fight cuz that would be hilarious

Is related because if you move the Vanguard Veterans upgrade to T2 (which is suggested on this thread), is going to affect the Chaos-SM matchup, and make the MoK CSM even a more situacional upgrade.

[Dark Riku]

Is related because if you move the Vanguard Veterans upgrade to T2 (which is suggested on this thread), is going to affect the Chaos-SM matchup, and make the MoK CSM even a more situacional upgrade.

Te suggestion also states to change the values of Vangaurds. Not just copy paste to T2....

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Is related because if you move the Vanguard Veterans upgrade to T2 (which is suggested on this thread), is going to affect the Chaos-SM matchup, and make the MoK CSM even a more situacional upgrade.

Te suggestion also states to change the values of Vangaurds. Not just copy paste to T2....

And in which way? Reverting the two last changes? (increased hp regeneration and increased health) But in this way you are going to limit the effectivness of the squad in T3. Would you give them a passive buff when you buy the T3 upgrade? And why not apply that to other squads?

[Torpid]

That's exactly my point nikhel, such a buff to the t2 sm composition is unwarranted and unecessary and just doesn't fit the role that was intended with the introduction of the unit - at least as I perceive it. As usual insight into the exact role of vanguards from Caeltos is always welcome.

[Dark Riku]

If they stay a T3 unit they should keep their levels and keep/get the meltabomb.

Otherwise make them a T2 upgrade:

And in which way?

Something along the lines of:
- Keep levels on upgrade.
- Keep the meltabomb or meltabomb unlocks again in T3.
(Able to upgrade to meltabomb after upgrade to Vanguards / keep the ability if already upgraded.)
- Power fist upgrade stays T3.
- Remove the better HP regen.
- Reduce their base damage slightly. (Thunder hammer Unlock in T3?)
(- Or don't reduce the damage but remove the meltabomb completely as it is now.)

- Could give them an upgrade/unlock come T3 that gives them back slightly more dps and the HP regen if scaling is a problem.

Something along those lines would actually make a useful unit I think.

What health "buff" are you referring to? This:

"Vanguard Veteran Squad health increased from 400 to 450
Vanguard Veteran Squad health progression decreased from 15% to 10% per level"

? Sure revert those too with the changes above.

[xerrol nanoha]

Would there be a way to discount the sternguard/ vanguard upgrades if the base squad is higher level or is upgraded with other weapons? That would solve some of the problems i expect.

[appiah4]

Considering Sternguard are mostly a drop-pod Spec-Ops unit in tabletop games and Vanguard have Heroic Intervention, I suppose making them whole new T2/T3 units that can deploy anywhere (via drop pod or jumping in from offscreen to disrupt, a-la autoarch) would have been much cooler..

[Faultron]

much cooler...and much OP:)