Radio the Forest wrote:wat?
I don't understand your point at all xerrol nanaha.
Lascannons and other AV weapons are basically sniper rifles vs terminators. Losing 100+ damage per shot on a squad that has limited on the field healing is a pretty big deal.
"Advantages of both and the weaknesses of neither"
Um not being able to retreat to is weakness (despite your claim to the contrary). In fact, it's the weakness that makes them balanced. Their other weakness is their lack of mobility, which once again helps make them balanced.
"once you have terminators you shouldn't lose the game"
what if both sides get terminators? Who loses then?
Finally:
cyclone missile launcher terminators will take quite a few barrages to kill even the weakest landraider variant (the phobos).
lightning claw terminators are a hard counter to the GUO yes, but that's why chaos also get lightning claw terminators of their own that cost less........
I explained most of this in my post actually
I'll start off by saying that, although slow firing av weapons are similar in design to lascannons (in that they are higher than average on hit damage with a really low rate of fire), you could only compare sniper rifles to infantry and av lascannons etc to terminators if it were the case that lascannons did like 500 damage per shot.
My point on this was that terminators capitalize on a huge health pool that makes no other weapon comparison behave the same way toward a terminator. To that end, you could just as well use sniper rifles as lascannons against terminators and they would both be equally effective or ineffective depending on your point of view.
Mine is ineffective, yours is effective. Which is fine because the high hp of terminators puts them in a position where there isn't a clear hard counter damage type that is reliable, and in most cases the damage type becomes less relevant compared to the safety or survivability of the unit you intend to use against terminators.
Secondly, I was only half serious in saying whomever gets terminators wins the game (even though I feel there is some clear merit to that statement, I've watched games from beta 8 where space marine players have been struggling or behind the entire game, and then turn it around instantly to win once terminators are on the field), and as for what happens if both players get? well see what I said for yourself:
once you have them you shouldn't lose the game (ceteris paribus or unless your opponent gets them too)
I use ceteris paribus to say both players being equal in skill and having made minimal game-altering mistakes, and I add that this doesn't work (obvioiusly, logically) if you and your opponent has them, but in that case it is still true that 'a' player who got the terminators wins
My last point with the great unclean one and the landraider, is that I feel that terminators offer superior value and advantages to super units in general, and that they should not do so. Super units are that, the fact that terminator squads can make an even larger impact on a game than super units do, and that they're easier to use and you can have multiple of them, just makes them designed too well.
Sure you can balance units with numbers and costs and what not, but in general every unit either works or it doesn't, and for terminators to "work" with their current design, they can't be anything other than broken 100% of the time.
... and that's my opinion of terminators. However, seeing that the community doesn't give a lot of f***s abotu terminators except when they wish they were better, I mostly just nod my head and say "uh huh, yeah, totally" because lets face it: terminators win games, and nobody wants to give up something that lets them win.
Anyway back to the topic of nonterminator units that don't 1v1 every other super unit and don't have a million health and are actually counterable with ease: The seer council.
( I mean hey, if you replaced every terminator squad with a seer council squad, you would feel ripped off too! especially if you could only get one squad also! )
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So anyway, I feel like the most appropriate comparison is that:
Banshees are to Seer Council as
Assault marines are to Veterans
However, the problem is that the Seer Council doesn't fill an aggressive role in the eldar army in the same way that Fire Prisms or the Avatar do, so in most cases the Seer Council is that squad you will get later "after" you have your core tier 3 aggro units, IF you still have supply left over.
Since the bottom line is that the Seer Council ONLY does the same things that fleetness banshees do, and while they do it better (as they should for their price and high tier), they can be considered a frivolous purchase if Banshees are still alive to fullfill that role and there are other units that would provide more strength to the eldar army in that moment (i.e. prism or avatar etc etc).
So, although I could admit that within a complete and zen unit composition, the Seer council might pull its weight, I still don't see any reason to get them, as they don't fullfill any clear purpose or offer any unique strength.