SS Performance

[Torpid]

They're not meant to do a specialised job though. They only need to do that when you buy two of them and treat like the backbone of your army. Don't do that and they're perfectly fine as they simply are just support and don't need to do anything else.

[Bahamut]

Srsly all their statistics except health (which is the exact same) and i mean melee dps. Melee skill and Range dps are superior than tacticals

Sure they can't beat shees in melee (they shouldn't) but they cab actually stand up to them.. With tacs/csm if you don't retreat right before shees get in melee they are as good as dead

[Torpid]

With tacs/csm if you don't retreat right before shees get in melee they are as good as dead

Huge hyperbole.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Srsly all their statistics except health (which is the exact same) and i mean melee dps. Melee skill and Range dps are superior than tacticals

Sure they can't beat shees in melee (they shouldn't) but they cab actually stand up to them.. With tacs/csm if you don't retreat right before shees get in melee they are as good as dead

Hamut, i'am pretty sure Tactical advance will Lolz at Shees with constant KB , still able to retreat safety without Model losses which SS will once they start retreating (ofc there's rest of the SM squad there preventing shees from sprinting).
what can SS do if their Energy burst on CD to stop Shees from chasing down the GKI ,engage melee & hope for a Successful KB or IST sgt throws Nade ? or Last-second transfer energy to GKI and pray its enough energy to disrupt Shees in their tracks?

I am Sure SS will take on KCSM/Sluggaz/GSB,etc with their 70 MS * sarcasm*
CSM is always paired with either AC tics/Chaos hero ,i don't seem em isolated. Especially under Khorne worship or Chosen PM waiting to bait the Shees

[HandSome SoddiNg]

to radio forest, if you want my honest answer for what i would do. it would probably be emphasizing the whole spell caster side of the SS with their 2 support abilities.

the psycannon should be removed (from the SS only), instead id rather have an upgrade that augments the two casting abilities they get or even add a new one (passive or active).
for example , maybe you can augment the slow to affect vehicles
or make it recharge faster or make it do a small amount of aoe damage.

or add a passive ability that reduces the damage taken of nearby squads by a small amount (so that you have synergy with battle cry / the libby)

heck i really dont see why the Strikes have both abilites tied to their justicar why not have it come standard when they enter t2 , and have the presence of a justicar improve it.

without the justicar it merely burns energy, with the justicar it slows and burns energy.

as for the psi bolts upgrade , there is no need to make it so dependent on the justicar , just remove the 15% damage bonus and give every model plasma damage.

there are many things that could be done to give the SS a better identity than simply being that one jack of all trades unit you happen to have from t1.

Tha'ts a wishful but giving SS every individual model Plasma damage? they be like TCSM but toned down version. Yup the only unit type being "Jack of all trades" . Removing psy-cannon is a start..

They're not meant to do a specialised job though. They only need to do that when you buy two of them and treat like the backbone of your army. Don't do that and they're perfectly fine as they simply are just support and don't need to do anything else.

They still take up ample space if you mistakenly upgraded em both completely,100 power altogether .. There's only like 1 GKI/Purifiers present on the field if u have 2 SS acting as Support ,unless a VA/TL/BC is nearby. A heavy composition alry.

[saltychipmunk]

right now im just throwing darts on the board to see what sticks.

You seemed to like the idea of removing the psy cannon , but did not like the idea of giving all the strikes plasma damage as an upgrade.

on the topic of psi bolts. its an upgrade that costs almost as much as a plasma gun yet its benefits are only really felt on the justicar. Something needs to be done to decouple the two so that the upgrade can stand on its own.

sure ill admit 50ish plasma ranged dps would be a bit much. so We can toss that out. Perhaps we can add some sort of secondary affect to them that does not directly translate to free damage

All the upgrades on the SS should be more independent of each other. I should not need to have to pay an extra 5 pop and the req and power just so the other upgrades on the squad work.

[Flash]

I main GK at a decent level... but I don't play 1v1 usually so my opinion is less weighted.

In 2v2 or 3v3, I have found them somewhat underwhelming so far. I would like to spend some more time playing with them with 2.3. I haven't had as much time in as I'd like.

As of now, the psybolt ammo very much underwhelms, however that is my only complaint right now. The cooldown reduction on energy burst is lovely and was so so needed.

[Forestradio]

...

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Thx for the the replay i just seen ,23 mins . Idk what this has to do with SS unless its adaptability to situations ?

Noisy didn't had any ASM at all , Alacrity/PS/teleporter FC being a nuisance. You managed to outeched him at 1st but Noisy still managed to came out ontop,even FC PF was not needed to stun GK dread at all. Las-predator just straight up destroyed the GK dread,etc .

right now im just throwing darts on the board to see what sticks.


You seemed to like the idea of removing the psy cannon , but did not like the idea of giving all the strikes plasma damage as an upgrade.

on the topic of psi bolts. its an upgrade that costs almost as much as a plasma gun yet its benefits are only really felt on the justicar. Something needs to be done to decouple the two so that the upgrade can stand on its own.

sure ill admit 50ish plasma ranged dps would be a bit much. so We can toss that out. Perhaps we can add some sort of secondary affect to them that does not directly translate to free damage

All the upgrades on the SS should be more independent of each other. I should not need to have to pay an extra 5 pop and the req and power just so the other upgrades on the squad work.

There's only like Psilencer/Psy-cannons in the GK arsenal ,what you're implying is make Psk-bolts same cost as Plasma gun purchase for Tacs? Psk-bolt atm is dependent on the Justicar benefits
Secondary effect like what? they retain their two supportive abilities . Just needed more firepower in the psk-bolt , Making it slightly expensive but cost-effective .
Otherwise you're revamping SS to become damage dealers if Plasma damage is distributed to all models across the board like tcsm.

[Ar-Aamon]

Psy ammo should be T1.

[Raffa]

Psy ammo should be T1.

Yeah. I know it has a load of benefits in T2 but surely +20% ranged damage on a backbone squad is a T1 upgrade?

[Ar-Aamon]

Eternal war? Melee and range and it's cheaper.

[Nurland]

SS are already statistically superior to csm/tacs in T1. It is their scalability into later tiers that is the (possible) problem imho.

[Bahamut]

SS are already statistically superior to csm/tacs in T1. It is their scalability into later tiers that is the (possible) problem imho.

totally agreed here. Tho i'd say that SS scales as good as tacs into t3, ofc TCSM and SG do scale way better than both

[HandSome SoddiNg]

SS are already statistically superior to csm/tacs in T1. It is their scalability into later tiers that is the (possible) problem imho.

totally agreed here. Tho i'd say that SS scales as good as tacs into t3, ofc TCSM and SG do scale way better than both

SS scales as good as in Tacs T3? ..Haixz yet Tacs does so many things better,overall Versatility . Snygery with Lib VOT & all 3 SM heroes . SS only better then Both in T1 ,rest of the tiers Support to a bitter end.

[saltychipmunk]

Thx for the the replay i just seen ,23 mins . Idk what this has to do with SS unless its adaptability to situations ?

Noisy didn't had any ASM at all , Alacrity/PS/teleporter FC being a nuisance. You managed to outeched him at 1st but Noisy still managed to came out ontop,even FC PF was not needed to stun GK dread at all. Las-predator just straight up destroyed the GK dread,etc .

right now im just throwing darts on the board to see what sticks.


You seemed to like the idea of removing the psy cannon , but did not like the idea of giving all the strikes plasma damage as an upgrade.

on the topic of psi bolts. its an upgrade that costs almost as much as a plasma gun yet its benefits are only really felt on the justicar. Something needs to be done to decouple the two so that the upgrade can stand on its own.

sure ill admit 50ish plasma ranged dps would be a bit much. so We can toss that out. Perhaps we can add some sort of secondary affect to them that does not directly translate to free damage

All the upgrades on the SS should be more independent of each other. I should not need to have to pay an extra 5 pop and the req and power just so the other upgrades on the squad work.

There's only like Psilencer/Psy-cannons in the GK arsenal ,what you're implying is make Psk-bolts same cost as Plasma gun purchase for Tacs? Psk-bolt atm is dependent on the Justicar benefits
Secondary effect like what? they retain their two supportive abilities . Just needed more firepower in the psk-bolt , Making it slightly expensive but cost-effective .
Otherwise you're revamping SS to become damage dealers if Plasma damage is distributed to all models across the board like tcsm.

Well i already agreed with you that the all plasma damage thing should be thrown out , you dont need to beat a horse that was already thoroughly slain in the very post you quoted.

and no i am not implying to make psi bolts cost the same as the plasma gun, what i am saying is that psy bolts >currently< cost almost as much as a plasma gun , yet on their own they dont do anything even remotely close to being as valuable as a plasma gun. In otherwords i am saying that currently they are too expensive for what they do.

Either they need to do more to justify their cost,

they need to do something that justifies their cost that is independent of the justicar,

or they need to be completely independent of the justicar.

Frankly i dont care what eventually is done to satisfy one of those goals, be it just a flat dps buff , a secondary ability , a buff to current abilitys , whatever that is not the point.

All i want is a reason to invest into SS without feeling like im being bent over a railing.


Personally i am in favor of option two. If you look at eternal war or even mark of khorn / mark of TZ on the csm both upgrades affect their champion, but the champion is not needed to justify the upgrade. the other three csm get some appreciable t2 worthy change.

A 15% buff to ranged damage on SS a squad with low ranged damage anyway is simply not an appreciable t2 worthy upgrade. Depending on who you ask, it is not even a good t1 upgrade.


I mean come on , its like giving shootaboys an upgrade to fix bayonets to the ends of their shootas for a 20% buff to melee, its a joke .

[Flash]

I take it all back.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Well i already agreed with you that the all plasma damage thing should be thrown out , you dont need to beat a horse that was already thoroughly slain in the very post you quoted.

and no i am not implying to make psi bolts cost the same as the plasma gun, what i am saying is that psy bolts >currently< cost almost as much as a plasma gun , yet on their own they dont do anything even remotely close to being as valuable as a plasma gun. In otherwords i am saying that currently they are too expensive for what they do.

Either they need to do more to justify their cost,

they need to do something that justifies their cost that is independent of the justicar,

or they need to be completely independent of the justicar.

Frankly i dont care what eventually is done to satisfy one of those goals, be it just a flat dps buff , a secondary ability , a buff to current abilitys , whatever that is not the point.

All i want is a reason to invest into SS without feeling like im being bent over a railing.


Personally i am in favor of option two. If you look at eternal war or even mark of khorn / mark of TZ on the csm both upgrades affect their champion, but the champion is not needed to justify the upgrade. the other three csm get some appreciable t2 worthy change.

A 15% buff to ranged damage on SS a squad with low ranged damage anyway is simply not an appreciable t2 worthy upgrade. Depending on who you ask, it is not even a good t1 upgrade.


I mean come on , its like giving shootaboys an upgrade to fix bayonets to the ends of their shootas for a 20% buff to melee, its a joke .[/quote]




Yeah Psk-bolts is nthg like Eternal war being a "Permanent" upgrade to CSM in both range & melee. . We see Regular tacs w/o their Sgt,they don't suffer from slight movement penalty neither do TCSM fully upgraded,they have the options of KCSM/TCSM transition ,which one of u suggested SS shd have freedom of choosing either NF & Psk-bolt upgrades ?

We don't really need more Melee prowness for GK alry ,SS needs to be kitted out for range warfare/Anti-infantry purposed .
I believe its better if getting Psk-bolts won't restrict yourself of purchasing the Justicar unless they can boon the Psk-bolts to be more effective/expensive enough to justify their cost of Needing the Justicar . Since GKI/BC,etc energy replenishment is dependent on SS Justicar cause of his 2 supportive abilities. i can see why all the Bonus benefits are stacked on him . But, GKi can be reliant on COA for their constant disruption/free-flow without having SS in the equation .
IMO ,i think Tactical advance is better then SS Melee trait as that one ability given by Sgt is best suited for intense Desperate situations . But,i guess all of em is Unique in their own rights .

Purifiers are also capable of Purification without their Justicar,bit odd lol

[Aertes]

How bad would it be if Psybolt Ammunition was made like the SM Tacticals' Kraken Rounds? A relatively short duration activated ability that significatively increased the ranged damage of the squad, enough to allow them to handle an engagement, but not allowing them to cope in a prolonged combat against superior enemies.

[Torpid]

Kraken bolt's 20% is significant but psybolt's 15% + plasma damage on the justicar is not?

[Aertes]

Having to wait to T2 and paying for it?, and with a lower starting ranged damage? I think so.

[Torpid]

I don't due to their incredible melee prowess in t1, not to mention IST provide better ranged support in cover to cover fights than scouts do, so it's not like GK are lacking in ranged dps in t1. Kraken bolts is also an active ability and not passive, not to mention the tac squad only has ATSKNF as its other ability, which is really less functional than both of the SS abilities.

[Aertes]

Their incredibly melee prowness is only useful if the enemy comes to melee, since without a charge move you won't reach anyone who doesn't want to be engaged. As soon as the enemy sees you are a GK they only have to get ranged units to domain you, and maybe a jump melee unit to work with their commander and control the Purgators and the Brother-Captain.

Their so functional SS T2 abilities are only useful if: 1 the enemy uses energy and 2 there are other friendly units nearby.
They can prevent the enemy from using abilities, but they just aren't enough menace for the enemy to need special abilities against them. CSM with any mark will own them without a single ability. Enhanced Banshees can use Fleet before in range of their powers, and then they just don't need the howl to break them down.

Of course, they aren't supposed to be immune to such things, they are a T1 basic unit after all, but again one would expect them to be able to work as one. Their abilities, if so needed, would fit better in another unit, one that's really a support one. Even in the Purifiers.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I don't since they also get more HP and are far more frightening in T1 due to their incredibly melee prowess there. Kraken bolts is also an active ability and not passive, not to mention the tac squad only has ATSKNF as its other ability, which is really less functional than both of the SS abilities.

Sure SS is Superior then Tacs Statistically. But, Tacs has plentiful diversity of combinations to pair em together, VOT/Signum/Stimpack/BC/FTE,etc. Without their Sgt,no movement penalty and with it, Stopping Caps with Tactical advance in desperation . Tacs contribution to engagements can even the playing field tremendously,their participation & functionally as a whole SM squadron is perfect . Times always when u upgrade your SS fully,u have to place em close to BC/GKI for energy replenishment unless COA is bought,Only purification available every engagements and energy burst is not always
However, i don't find TL snyergize that well with SS except GKI & the rest melee-oriented units . I don't believe any range squads are stupid enough to engage SS in melee come T2/T3 . TCSM/Tacs will win every dogfights vs SS every inch of the way and how incredibly fast 2x TCSM can peel off models & force GKI off the field .

Of course, they aren't supposed to be immune to such things, they are a T1 basic unit after all, but again one would expect them to be able to work as one. Their abilities, if so needed, would fit better in another unit, one that's really a support one. Even in the Purifiers.

Other then WATH to Maneuver around? I would say Purifiers Partial-AV/Anti-infantry does slightly job then SS ,their so expensive to reinforce and without Justicar,they still have purification . A melee walker will just give em a run for their money now with NWS. I can't decide myself tbh lol

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Ever since the Implementation of Psk-bolts ,they seem to be doing respectable damage output ,not moderate. Tha'ts Ok But,i don't see that much of a Significant improvement compared to previously ,its not the Most demanding purchase for GK come T2,So its not worth investing into em immediately .
LV4 SS loses to lv1 Sternguard squad with Vengeance Rounds.. ..Anyways,SS with Justicar & Psk-bolts does lesser dps then Tacs w Sgt wielding plasma gun overall with Kraken rounds , just a squad with efficiency .

What happens to the 15% Justicar range damage boast if the Justicar himself is Killed 1st in a firefight,tedious to replace even 2 SS builds will scale horribly but with gud flexibility vs certain races/builds into T3
I'am implying the Magnitude of SS Psy-cannon & Psk-bolts is just Negotiable ,Maybe adding an additional Psy-cannon to another SS model so 2 Psy-cannons altogether in a Strike squad for extra DPS.


OR
IMO, I suggest SS Psk-bolts needs more damage percentage increase above 15% ,but remove the Psy-cannon from em entirely??? Examples : you're investing resources into 2 SS builds early ,tha'ts altogether 100 that may or might not pay off ,it might bite u in the ass. Their not considered an independent Ranged force to be reckoned with,not saying 2 SS build is weak .
But , its nothing like 2 TCSM/2 Tacs(1 Regular/1 SG) build composition ,they are problematic against 2 SS. Psk-bolt is a Compulsory requirement of the Justicar purchase to be present for it to fully work as a Whole. Suddenly,2 SS is not that a viable build then ,can be countered by a Singular hero/Jump unit or 1 Squad like Chosen PM.

SS melee capacity is 70 meele skill,1 explosive-psy-cannon mini-Low AOE output /2 abilities. Although Statistically SS is superior then Tacs ,but Tacs contribution to engagements even the playing field and their various combinations of VOT/Stimpack/BC/FTE,etc makes em reliable sources of Anti-infantry & AV ,their adaptive to ever-changing situations wherelse SS can't really participate that much late -T2/T3.

Their melee trait will be nothing against Melee specialists -Sluggaz/Shees/GSB,etc Not afraid to engage em . Unlike ATSKNF/tactical advance 50% really Helps in desperation ,shrugging off Melee units left & right & finishing Caps .
Unfortunately, GK gives +18/21 red. Good red to your opponents per SS model loss varying on their level. 2 SS cannot really edge out ontop of ranged -dog firefights,They need least 1 Melee unit be it GKI/Purifiers . Still 2 SS/purif,etc is a Heavy investments/bleedy economy whether it pay off entirely taking ample space for pivotal AV units.
Its currently underwhelming , Their not really functioning as a backbone unit to support the GK squadron .
Heck even 2 Purgation-Psycannons overall does more DPS then 2 SS in mere seconds .

Shouldn't SS be Specialized more towards range Warfare then a stabilized Generalized role?
Make Psk-bolts compatible with Tacs wielding plasma gun ,Shouldn't Psk-bolts completely change SS role to be Anti-infantry purposed then Partial AV?
Their not even as Versatile as Tacs capable of Transitional AV smoothly or anything special , distinctively a supportive & sustainable unit type to feed GKI/BC/TL/VA energy all day long,. SS can't really distinguish whether its wants to be like Tacs or TCSM,just split into the middle. The rest of the GK arsenal are vastly improved,except maybe no traditional Snare . Only SS concerns me atm.

[saltychipmunk]

I would like to just make a note , that the claim that SS are statistically superior to tacs and csm can be a subjective view point which can be heavily influenced by that you want from them as a unit.

yes in a pure melee role, SS mop the floor with tacs and csm.

however most of the time you dont use tacs /csm or even SS as pure melee. Most of the time you use that melee to get some model kills on a melee squad you were shooting at or you try to tie up a weaker ranged squad in melee. Neither roll explicitly need melee skill to accomplish. On the contrary , you dont want melee specials when chasing kiting ranged infantry because it makes it easier for them to kite you, nor do you want melee specials on retreating units , because you might miss and do no damage.

in that scope that melee skill is completely irrelevant.

as for why i suggested the removal of the psy cannon, ... because its shit . look some of the best tactical maneuvers you can do with tacs and csm, is to chase units while firing , or chasing a unit, stop to fire a spike weapon and then resuming the chase.

that is not something a psi cannon can do, it only fires when still and it doesnt do spike damage. It is quite possibly the worst damage delivery vector cael could have stuck on a tactical heavy infantry unit.

it already does low damage, factor in those other two points and its a weapon so hilariously inefficient that it is rather sad.

Ignore what the paper dps on that weapon is, its NOT doing that dps 90% of the time.


the psy cannon is fine on the purges since they can increase their range(though purges are also a pretty darn weak unit for 60 power investment) , keep it on the purges, but it has no place on the SS.


GK are psychers , they really should be more caster themed. But right now too many of their abilities are defensive o support oriented. They have almost no abilities that actually increase their offense.

following that logic perhaps we can convert the psi bolts into an ability. perhaps make it a 5 - 10 second ability where the bolts do aoe inferno damage . That way they *can* become better than the tcsm or tacs in ranged for a duration, BUT only if they time their ability right. to balance it we could remove the psy cannon and make the psi bolts more expensive to compensate.

Dont worry about dps numbers because those can be tweaked , just consider the idea.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I would like to just make a note , that the claim that SS are statistically superior to tacs and csm can be a subjective view point which can be heavily influenced by that you want from them as a unit.

yes in a pure melee role, SS mop the floor with tacs and csm.

following that logic perhaps we can convert the psi bolts into an ability. perhaps make it a 5 - 10 second ability where the bolts do aoe inferno damage . That way they *can* become better than the tcsm or tacs in ranged for a duration, BUT only if they time their ability right. to balance it we could remove the psy cannon and make the psi bolts more expensive to compensate.

Dont worry about dps numbers because those can be tweaked , just consider the idea.

SS wipes the floor with Tacs/CSM in T1 but as the later tiers progresses,those guys will be ones doing the Floor wiping in Range firefights. Though i agree with the Spike tracking they can't Kill fleeing Models by chasing cause of that psy-cannon ,just whacking in their tracks. Inferno_Pvp damage is kept to TCSM/Dark reapers

Bah, Psk-bolts an upgrade similar to eternal war ,their nthg alike to Kraken rounds . I still go with making Psk-bolts expensive/effective to compensate it as a purchase ,mostly anti-infantry purposeful. Though am not clear whether psy-cannon is integrated part of Psk-bolts ,i doubt so. We're talking abt a Justicar that has 15% plasma + 2 supportive abilities & MS ,am not too good with numbers myself. Bumping that percentage higher /increasing the Justicar's plasma Dps & reducing their MS/Melee trait overall is better? Their melee capacity is better then range atm.
SS doesn't really need that small-burst AOE ,leave Psy-cannons exclusive to Paladins/Helberdiers . GK AV is fine in 1v1 perspective

[saltychipmunk]

So , no to the ability to make psy bolts temporarily inferno aoe?

If we just make psy bolts more expensive , but worth it ; wouldn't that just be an inferior version of TCSM?
The reason why i suggested an ability the temporarily buffs the ranged damage of SS substantially was two fold

1 because it is no longer dependent on the justicar meaning people who dont want to pad their population finally get a viable alternative.

2 because SS should never beat tacs or csm in flat ranged all the time . In my mind the best they should do is use their psycher abilities to temporarily get a substantial boost to ranged damage.

But They do need ranged damage though, t2 is dominated by ranged a good chunk of the time and a race that just does not have something competitive in the ranged department is at a huge disadvantage against races that have that option.

thing is that if we just give SS a weaker version of the Tcsm , people will still complain that SS are inefficient.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

IMHO SS are pretty OK as they are. Seriously, stop compairing them with TCSM (and even EW AC CSM) and Tacs. Different armies, different designs, different purposes.

TCSM are a pure anti-infantry ranged damage squad, with no ability. They have melee resistance aura and some melee damage, but they essentially wants to use their ranged damage and not kick guys in their faces with their bolters.

Tacts are a versatile ranged squad who can have different roles due their expensive (compared with other similar upgrades) weapons. They have two abilities, one which only affects HI armour and the other which couldn't be used
carelessly.

SS is supposed to be a support ranged squad, with decent ranged damage and more than decent melee damage. Not only their melee damage, but their 70 melee skill and they are able to do special attacks, which AFAIK is the unique ranged squad which such abilities. (the Tact Sargent is the only similar). Also they have two abilities. One supports their power hungry race, giving energy to the BC/Interceptors.... and the other is an energy burn ability with snare, which have fucktons of uses.

More than increase their ranged damage, I will decrease a bit the cost of PsyBolt ammunition upgrade or decrease a bit the coldown of the two abilities. If you want turn them into an (even) more specialized ranged damage squad the 70 melee skill and the special attack abilities should go.

[saltychipmunk]

and then we are back to the argument about their over generalized roll.

and to correct you , SS do not have abilities. SS + a mandatory 5 pop justicar have abilities.
Why must everyone who argues that SS are fine assume everyone wants a 20 pop squad ?

Why are so many people OK with the justicar being borderline mandatory ?

AND i already suggested that the psi bolts upgrade could be replaced with something that affected the SS abilities.
Only once again it would be yet another upgrade that is almost completely dependent on the justicars presence


how about this,

the psy bolts upgrade gives both abilities. in addition to what it already does. its cost is brought up to 125 , 25 or something.
The justicar reduces cool downs of said upgrades. (in addition to getting the plasma damage)

we remove the psy-cannon.

and make the SS ranged damage scale slightly better over levels .

OR

you have one ability on the psybolts and one on the justicar.