Vanguards' Thunder & Lightning removal

[xXKageAsashinXx]

Just wondering, why do vanguards lose their melta bomb during their upgrade? Is it because the upgrade is actually a bait 'n switch so different unit = different role? You use them the exact same way as normal ASM only you expect them to last longer and deal more damage than ASM. Basically, to be straight up better instead of straight up more niche.

Never did understand this and would like to have someone explain it to me.

[Crewfinity]

They change roles entirely from being a disruptive, tanky unit to one with much more staying power (via health regen) and a much bigger damage dealer (power melee versus regular melee). They lose the melt bomb to gain much more effectiveness versus heavy and super heavy infantry squads.

So yeah, different roles.

[xXKageAsashinXx]

To sum it all up...

ASM - Tanky disruption and occasional retreat killers
VV - Very tanky disruption and great outright squad killing potential

I get that they became more specialized in their melee aspect to turn them into a melee superiority unit. It just doesn't make much sense to me is all. Thanks for the answer crew. Saw this already but kinda wanted to make sure whether my hunch was right or not.

[Crewfinity]

yep. SM T3 has ample ways to deal with AV, so usually losing the melta bomb isnt that big of a deal (predator, missile termies, etc). the main reason you upgrade to vanguards is to counter a T3 melee unit like nobz or something anyway, so your opponent shouldnt be able to afford a vehicle as well as an expensive elite melee unit. having a unit like vanguards with a melta bomb makes them too versatile i think.

[Dark Riku]

the main reason you upgrade to vanguards is to counter a T3 melee unit like nobz or something anyway,

The Codex Astartes does not support this action. I would not recommend you fight most dedicated melee units with vanguard, especially nobs
Not by themselves anyway.

[Black Relic]

The main reason i get vanguards is to put pressure on high priority HI/SHI ranged infantry units like terminators. I will only use vanguard on a t3 melee squad if i have multiple means of disruption (for nobs and seer council) or have missile launchers vs terminators (melee variant).

Vanguards do trade the set up potential to kill a tank via melta bomb for more dps (which equals more bleed and units getting forced off or wiped more often than with ASM) but they still can put pressure on low tanks with the power fist. But I completely disagree with them being a t3 dedicated melee unit. In my opinion their role doesn't change too much other than they can take on melee units from t1 and t2 and put alot of pressure on range terminators.

there is my 2 cents.

[Swift]

I'm surprised for one that you called it "Thunder and Lightning" and not just "Melta bomb."

[xXKageAsashinXx]

having a unit like vanguards with a melta bomb makes them too versatile i think.

One could make that argument with sternguards, with all their ammo types and ATSKNF. I see no problem with making vanguards the melee version of sternguards as that's essentially what ASMs are to tacs. Also, versatility's kinda the point of SM to be honest though XD

I'm surprised for one that you called it "Thunder and Lightning" and not just "Melta bomb."

While the thread was mainly about the melta bomb, I didn't count out the stun grenade they get as that could be very helpful in their role as a melee superiority unit that's also a jump disruption unit. Of course, that's if you use it, as if people actually have then it's even more of a secret than grey knights are in the fluff XD

Also, that ties in to my response to crew. If keeping the melta bomb is too much to ask because of their role change, then the stun grenade should be perfectly alright since all it'll really do is make them do their job better. Disrupt blobs without using knockback, kill squads while they just stand there, or both.