Smoke Shells

[sk4zi]

according to the last cast of Indrid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq1uVUbKErM) i think someone should call that shells too strong.

IG now has 3 counters to Setup teams.
Ol reliable, Sentinel stomp and that smoke shell.
no other race has that many options to deal with any stationary stuff.

although the smoke shell is cool and spotters need a lot of skill to use them, its just overpowered.
reducing a heavy bolter to almost no range isnt funny.

in my opinion it should be changed.
i have 2 sugestions:

1. reduce the range less. maybe by 50% like the flare does. this is also enough to counter setup teams, but at least they cant be just tied up because the have no more range at all.

when they cant see out of the smoke, why the fck others can see inside??
so 2nd sugestion is, give them reduced damage by range fire the same amount their range is reduced... (90%?)

[Lag]

None of the counters you mentioned actually forces the retreat on the setup team like ASM, Raptors, Raveners, Stormboyz, heroes ignoring suppression and teleporting heroes do. You just disable them for a while. That's what you call a "soft counter". Try playing IG vs good players using suppression to feel the pain.

[sk4zi]

true, i am not an IG player ...

what about my second sugestion?

i dont want to remove the shell

[Torpid]

No, both suggestions are ridiculous. What's the point of smoking the suppression only to make them immune to damage? Remember IGs only melee in t1 is their heroes, so what would the point be??? Spotters are meant to be a hard suppression counter, that's what they do and they don't scale particularly well with no combat prowess or AV. Additionally like Lag already said the spotters themselves are only a soft counter, albeit the strongest soft counter to suppression in the game atm. Ultimately they don't do any dps themselves and so you have to rely on yet another squad to force off the suppression. Spotters are fine.

[Kvek]

according to the last cast of Indrid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq1uVUbKErM) i think someone should call that shells too strong.

IG now has 3 counters to Setup teams.
Ol reliable, Sentinel stomp and that smoke shell.
o more range at all.

Ol reliable is a pretty bad counter, you need to combine it with the sent stomp/Commisar.
Sentinel stomp alone is not a setup team counter, he will die before he gets there

[Orkfaeller]

While I'm a bit uh anoid how the smoke shell of the Spotters and the Smoke Screen of the Razorback have such a insane different effect, I really dont think the Smoke Shell is OP or anything right now. It might be in the hands of lets say a "melee race" but in the hands of IG? its not like they are going to sprint up to you and tie you up.

Sentinel stomp alone is not a setup team counter, he will die before he gets there

Ah, come on, people really underestimate the beating a Sentinel can take.
No chance a Sentinel goes down when walking up to a set up team.
( No garantee though that he get out again )

[Kvek]

Sentinel stomp alone is not a setup team counter, he will die before he gets there

Ah, come on, people really underestimate the beating a Sentinel can take.
No chance a Sentinel goes down when walking up to a set up team.
( No garantee though that he get out again )

He will die, and if he survives, he will be easily taken down by DA/tacs etc

[Dark Riku]

None of the counters you mentioned actually forces the retreat on the setup team like ASM, Raptors, Raveners, Stormboyz, heroes ignoring suppression and teleporting heroes do. You just disable them for a while. That's what you call a "soft counter". Try playing IG vs good players using suppression to feel the pain.

None of the counters you mention will immediately force the retreat either.
Unless this is a 1on1 unit encounter which almost never takes place.
(Not considering buildings here either.)

They don't just disable suppression teams for a while.
Spotters are a hard counter: They have 2 different shells on 2 different cooldowns that will stop your suppression team from contributing anything to the fight.


That being said, I don't see any reason to change them Sk4zi.
Your first suggestion won't allow the smoke to be used in conjuration with the hero charging into melee as easily. The hero has to make more of a flanking manoeuvre then if he wants to tie it up in melee. I feel this could be up for some more debate.
Your second suggestion would make it very hard for IG to do any damage then to the unit inside since the race primarily relies on ranged damage.


About the sent:
A sentinel could stomp a suppression team after a successful flank. Or he could move in after one of the spotter shells have been fired. Allowing the rest to move in.
All these situations could happen. But it depends from game to game and the positioning of both players. Nothing wrong with any of this.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

in my experience IG drops a smoke shell and then shoots the plat until it has to retreat. being behind a shield helps a little but it still generally doesn't contribute much to the engagement.

[Batpimp]

according to the last cast of Indrid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq1uVUbKErM) i think someone should call that shells too strong.

IG now has 3 counters to Setup teams.
Ol reliable, Sentinel stomp and that smoke shell.
no other race has that many options to deal with any stationary stuff.

although the smoke shell is cool and spotters need a lot of skill to use them, its just overpowered.
reducing a heavy bolter to almost no range isnt funny.

in my opinion it should be changed.
i have 2 sugestions:

1. reduce the range less. maybe by 50% like the flare does. this is also enough to counter setup teams, but at least they cant be just tied up because the have no more range at all.

when they cant see out of the smoke, why the fck others can see inside??
so 2nd sugestion is, give them reduced damage by range fire the same amount their range is reduced... (90%?)

is this coming from a 1v1 perspective or team perspective?

i CANT STAND those artillery spotters as ork/sm but it does what its supposed to do. I dont think your points are valid coming from a team perspective. Like has been said. They have no way of pushing them off for sure. sent stomp/catas are just 3-5 second delays but the mortar HAS to be backed up with the actual army to make a diff. and in t2/t3 it scales badly. Dont forget they cost a good amount of power too

[Dark Riku]

[... and in t2/t3 it scales badly. Dont forget they cost a good amount of power too

Ok, first of all, 30 power for a 1 time purchase is not too much for what you get. (Their upgrades cost no power)
2nd, I always hope they lose a model so I pay a little less upkeep
and keep them around with 1-2models.
Third, they scale greatly into T3. Smoke shelling tanks is AMAZINGLY good.
Plus incendiary forces any setup to replace/retreat/be saved by an ability or get killed.

[Batpimp]

if you say so but i have never had an enemy buy one or last one until t3. the idea sounds good but application? i dont see any examlples

[Ace of Swords]

if you say so but i have never had an enemy buy one or last one until t3. the idea sounds good but application? i dont see any examlples

Smokeshell is useful from the beginning to the end of the game, works on everything turrets and vehicles included, the incendiary shell is probably the best anti garrison of the game aswell as a good way to render a portion of the terrain not accessible or just to hurt a blob/setup team, the squad itself also offers a basically free detection unit.

[Batpimp]

maybe i should state that i agree that it is useful. also that i dont think the changes the OP submitted should be done.

[sk4zi]

thanks for your answers.

1st. the way to counter with smoke shells is not tying up after smoking a supression team but shooting it down which works very well for IG
even if the shell would nerfed to half range it would still work.
also its not the only thing happening in a fight.

but i dislike that the smoked squad cant really shoot any more but it can be shot.
so thats my sugestions:

a) make them still shooting a bit
b) make them not vulnerable to be shot.
its just fair.

usually devastors (or similar troops - wheapon teams, Havocs) are to counter that insane range damage comming from Guardsmen + Sentinel.
you really cant outshoot an IG blob with the 3 possible supression supported races (Eldar, SM, Chaos)

if i get for example
a SM (or CSM) sqaud + Deva (or havoc), i spent the same power like an IG player did with Spotters + Sent + 2nd guardsmen, which is very common.

but if theese two armys fight each other, its pretty sure that the spotters change everything.
they smoke the deva which is forced to replace then. this takes a lot of time (desetup, move, setup) in this time the guardsmen can easyly shoot down the deva.
but the SM/CSM/Eldar Guardians cant do that with the IG.

even if the spotters are attacked, it doesn´t change anything because they dont need to stand still after they called the smoke (like devas need to supress).

last but not least, its not their only skill. they still have the kb shell which is not mentioned yet and which also is enough for countering a setup team very well.

actually they can either intterrupt twice or interrupt 2 squads at the same time, which no other unit can.

so spotters force opponent races to geht at least 1 other squzad to counter that (a melee squad)

[Dark Riku]

-.-

...
last but not least, its not their only skill. they still have the kb shell which is not mentioned yet and which also is enough for countering a setup team very well.
...

...
They don't just disable suppression teams for a while.
Spotters are a hard counter: They have 2 different shells on 2 different cooldowns that will stop your suppression team from contributing anything to the fight.
...

[Nuclear Arbitor]

yeah, the only way to keep a setup team in the fight after getting smoked is to have a heal or be behind an eldar shield; otherwise there's just to much dps coming in.

[ThongSong]

one thing I don't understand is why smoke shell debuffs the range of a unit more than the basilik flare does

[Pandemic]

one thing I don't understand is why smoke shell debuffs the range of a unit more than the basilik flare does

Probably because smoke blinds your foe a lot better.

Then again, this mod is about balance, not really realistic actions, lore accuracy, or anything of the sort.

[sk4zi]

-.-

...
last but not least, its not their only skill. they still have the kb shell which is not mentioned yet and which also is enough for countering a setup team very well.
...

...
They don't just disable suppression teams for a while.
Spotters are a hard counter: They have 2 different shells on 2 different cooldowns that will stop your suppression team from contributing anything to the fight.
...

sorry riku

so let´s takl about balance Pandemic.

why is it balacned to have a 30 power squad which hard counters another 30 Power squad, whithout being countered at all?


edit:
but i have to say, now that Rikun and Toilalee (both SM players) think this is ok, it might be .... especially, becaue i used tiolalee´s fail to prove it

[Kvek]

-.-

...
last but not least, its not their only skill. they still have the kb shell which is not mentioned yet and which also is enough for countering a setup team very well.
...

...
They don't just disable suppression teams for a while.
Spotters are a hard counter: They have 2 different shells on 2 different cooldowns that will stop your suppression team from contributing anything to the fight.
...

sorry riku

so let´s takl about balance Pandemic.

why is it balacned to have a 30 power squad which hard counters another 30 Power squad, whithout being countered at all?


edit:
but i have to say, now that Rikun and Toilalee (both SM players) think this is ok, it might be .... especially, becaue i used tiolalee´s fail to prove it

I could ask the same about Sigil of the rift.
Or grenade launcher heretics.

[Torpid]

Because that's the very point of hard counters. Please, for goodness sake is you aren't informed in the slightest about RTS games then don't comment on the balance of them.

A hard counter is a unit that is designed to counter another unit extremely cost effectively, however in doing so it will fail against pretty much all other opposition. Spotters are a hard suppression counter but suck vs melee/ranged/vehicles. Lascannon upgrades are a hard vehicle counter but suck vs ranged/melee/suppression. Guardsmen flamethrowers are a hard building counter but suck vs everything else.

For the power that is costs to get a hard counter you get a unit that is extremely cost effective against their counter, but extremely cost ineffective against everything else. This is why your base for your army shouldn't consist of too many squads that cost power (t1.5) in tier1; because these squads are more specialised and generally shouldn't be employed for generalist purposes compared to generic ranged/melee squads as it's inefficient.

[Lag]

" hard counter

A strategy that utterly dominates another strategy, leaving no question of the outcome.

Compare to soft counter. In a soft counter, the strategy being countered can still be victorious through skill or luck. There is no chance of this when a hard counter is used."

Throwing down a smoke shell on a setup team that lasts for a few seconds with a race which tends to have 0 melee units aside from your hero doesn't sound like a hard counter to me.

[Torpid]

The smoke shell gives you time whereas the mortar shell/incendiary shell are better at forcing off the foe. It takes a very small amount of IG focus fire to force off a suppression team once they are knocked out of cover by a mortar shell or have lost 60% of their hp due to incendiary rounds and you then can use the smoke shell too.

[Lag]

Cool, now compare that to Sarge Assault Marines (SM's t2 counter - if we are already talking about t2 stuff). Or Champ Raptors, Nob Stormboyz etc.

[Forestradio]

Lag, the artillery spotters are a hard counter, no matter which way you slice it.

They completely shut down setup teams and turrets.

Compare to the sent stomp (requires a flank) or the catachan grenade barrage. Those are soft counters because they don't always work (require follow it with commie lord, massed flashlight fire, etc)

I'm really liking the spotters, since they give IG t1 other options besides catachans

[Lag]

I love theorycraft masters.
Count how many times a smoke shell has shooed off a suppression team, and then count how many time a jump squad did that and you will have your stat what is a hard counter and what is a soft counter.
Just because a Scout squad can't deal damage to vehicles and Tacs (with RL) can - doesn't make upgraded Tacs a hard counter. Las Cannon devastators are.

[Dark Riku]

A hard counter is a unit that is designed to counter another unit extremely cost effectively, however in doing so it will fail against pretty much all other opposition. Spotters are a hard suppression counter but suck vs melee/ranged/vehicles. Lascannon upgrades are a hard vehicle counter but suck vs ranged/melee/suppression. Guardsmen flamethrowers are a hard building counter but suck vs everything else.

I'm going to nitpick here :p
Spotters are a very good unit vs any ranged type unit in general.
Lascannons and other av also 100% hit terminators.
GM flamethrowers are also good vs light/many infantry.

Your point still stands and I agree. Just wanted to add/say this :p

Cool, now compare that to Sarge Assault Marines (SM's t2 counter - if we are already talking about t2 stuff). Or Champ Raptors, Nob Stormboyz etc.

Spotters are a hard counter to setups. I don't see how this can even be argued about. They are also a very safe and cheap squad compared to jump units.
And yes, the incendiary shell does a lot of dmg to units just standing still in there.
All from a safe distance. And 1 model for the spotter is also enough for the squad to be fully operational.

Just because a Scout squad can't deal damage to vehicles and Tacs (with RL) can - doesn't make upgraded Tacs a hard counter. Las Cannon devastators are.

This comparison doesn't even make sense :/

[Forestradio]

I love theorycraft masters.
Count how many times a smoke shell has shooed off a suppression team, and then count how many time a jump squad did that and you will have your stat what is a hard counter and what is a soft counter.
Just because a Scout squad can't deal damage to vehicles and Tacs (with RL) can - doesn't make upgraded Tacs a hard counter. Las Cannon devastators are.

So I disagreed with you, and now I'm automatically a theorycrafter?

If we are talking 1 squad vs 1 squad, then obviously a jump squad is preferably, for disruption, etc
HOWEVER, combined with the rest of the IG army, spotters are just as good at forcing off suppression teams as jump units are. You can either shut them down, or knock them out of cover and flashlight them to death

Jumping units also cost a hell of a lot more than spotters do, and do piss poor damage in melee compared to other melee units.

Your tactical marine/scout example is a strawman, so I won't even respond to that.

As for "counting" the number of times suppression units are forced off, that's not possible.

[Toilailee]

Ol' reliable is not a set up team counter. Set up team is a catachan counter, you got it backwards.

Sentinel stomp is definitely not a set up team counter either. In most cases running sent to stomp a set up team has alredy set up is suicide. And even if sent manages to survive with a slither of health it will still die in most cases to any unit(s) that is near the set up team.

Now double sents in retail used to work as sort of a set up team counter, having both of them shoot at it at the edge of its arc while being repaired. This only worked tho when that set up team wasn't in green cover and it has been nerfed in elite with the ig repair rate drop.

Las turret can still be used as sort of a make do set up counter if you don't have anything else but its situational at best.

So ye, artillery spotters are a hard set up/turret counter, and not much else.



Also since when am I sm player.
Especially coming from kalzi4.