SM struggle vs IG

[Sturnn]

Hi Guyz,

I've a question for SM players - how do you deal with IG, especially in early game (T1, early T2). I struggle a lot vs almost every their build. Sentinel and 2x GM are nightmare for me when I do have hero,scouts and tsm vs it. I mostly play FC and TM (70% of the games).
I tried many build orders and to be honest everyone fails me (for sure it is my inferior skill but still I think that I lack sth in my approach). Quite often I make HB with Vengance Rounds after TSM but still its quite easy for IG to counter that like catachans barrage and then melee charge on my bolter or simply flame if I am against LC. I also tried Scout snipers to put some more dmg on sentinel but still, those early minutes are really hard for me.

Any advice or share of insight and approach to this MU would be nice

[Atlas]

@ General

I can talk about this matchup mostly from the IG side. I personally feel that this matchup is slightly IG favored overall but absolutely winnable as SM. So first, come in with a good mindset!

A general build order for vs IG as SM would be Start Scout - Tac - Tac - Dev, probably a wargear or two, almost certainly veng. rounds and a flamer. It's not a perfect build but it's something to work with.

2 Tacs provide a good core of tanky ranged dps to deal with the GM blob and are decent at forcing off the Sentinel. Try not to bunch them up because a Sent stomp could easily knock both squads out of cover and basically ensure an early retreat.

As an aside to that, make sure that your Tacs are always in at least equal level cover to GM. Another thing to note in regards to Tac vs GM is that your Tacs will definitely serve in melee as well. It's a situational thing.

In T2, an AC dread is ideal and doable if you prevented much bleed in T1. If not, you should consider a Pdev even in 1v1. With Devs suppressing a blob, the Pdev squad has a good shot. Pdevs also act as pseudo AV against a Chimera. I would also seriously consider upgrading one of your Tacs into a Sternguard squad for those delicious rounds.

@FC

FC does some very interesting things in this MU. I would recommend Artificer + Halo in T1 like 90% of the time. With those two wargears he can tank the IG army all day and essentially force a HWT pickup. When you can make the enemy composition that predictable, that's a huge plus. Battlecry isn't as big of a deal in this MU due to lack of melee to force off so you can invest that energy into the Halo instead.

In T2, the TH is obvious. Consider swapping the Halo for the Teleporter as well, though it isn't always necessary.

@TM

TM probably has the best MU right out of the gate with that 35 dps bolter. Bionics/Artificer Armor are both good wargears that will help quite a lot in those sustained cover-to-cover firefights. I'm not as big of a fan of the Master Crafted Bolter as it's a touch expensive, but in this MU it's arguably worthwhile. The High Powered Shot is definitely useful and should gib most models it hits. A forward turret to lock down IG power would also be a powerful tactic should IG give you that opportunity.

In T2, meh on TM wargears. TM wargear in T2 isn't really that helpful in dealing with most IG comps. You could consider switching for the Signum Armor though, as it's always a great wargear. But you'll probably get more use out of your TM in T2 by having him off to the sides of the map and capping/screening for flanks. His hp regen wargears basically ensure that he can beat 90% of the IG comp in ranged combat.

[Sturnn]

Do we consider thos 2x TSM and Dev as a response to 2x GM and Sentinel or sth more, catachans maybe?

[Atlas]

Do we consider thos 2x TSM and Dev as a response to 2x GM and Sentinel or sth more, catachans maybe?

Usually 2 GM + Sent, although I personally think 3 GM + Sent is master build.

[Ace of Swords]

If you have replays post them, make sure they are from the mode you are most interested in.

For general tips:

- Don't make more than 1 scout squad vs IG, they are useless against them.

- Make sure you are always hitting the GMs early game, don't get yourself in a position where he can use his sent to shoot at your hero/tacts/scouts while he can double repair it out of your reach.

-Focus fire the inq/LC, generally you can ignore the LG since you won't be able to force it off early game, sm dps is too low.

-Flamers are very very good against everything they have in T1 except the HWT, you'll destroy turrets and melt both blobbed up GMs and catas easily, plus you can always bash with them and they are pretty cheap for 15 power.

-Speaking for myself I prefer the 1 1 1 1 build regardless of hero and follow a proactive build as the following:

starting unit > tacts if spotters/hwt > asm if hero anti melee weapons > devs
-------------------------------------------if catas > flamers > devs
----------------------------------------------------------------if full bash > fast tech



starting unit > tacts if catas > devs > asm (since 99% of the time they will go spotters so you don't even have to think about it) but if they get more catas after your asm just buy a flamer.

If they open with a las turret you can easily go dev into flamers unless you know you can push hard with a flamer as first purchase, hero wargears are recommended only for apo and fc in T1 (respectively any of the weapons for apo by preference and halo for the fc, purchase them when you feel comfortable with your army composition) TM doesn't really need anything in t1.

Mass GMs calls for the same things devs and flamers are great, you might not want to purchase ASM if he's not making too many power purchases in that case, same goes for double gm double sent (where you may want to make your scout squad into a sniper, depends if you can get a kill on 1 sent without them or not).

Mass sent build 3+ may require multiple devs or snipers at your preference.

edit: double tacts builds work fine vs them, ask toil,tex,noisy etc, support them however you can, fc has stormshield and his stendard, TM can use his bolter to insta suppress approaching heroes and focus them down with your ranged blob.

But I honestly prefer the flexibility of 1 1 1 1.

Aaand last thing, always keep devs at max range so that catas can't barrage and then approach them.

[Sturnn]

Thanks for feedback. If will find any e-mail worht of posting I will do so

[Oddnerd]

I almost exclusively play as LC, so here are some of the things I found were most effective against me.

1 - Don't get caught in a ranged attrition fight with a sentinel. It seems self-evident because sentinels don't bleed, but every day that I play I face SM players who are happy to engage in a static firefight with my turret/sent. Either hold off and just build up your forces or go all in and push it.

2 - An addon to the previous point - bully the GM squads. The only way to inflict real damage is to bleed his troops, and with good focusing from tacs/heroes/scouts you can melt GM squads fairly quickly. This also leaves the sentinel vulnerable because the units repairing him are tied up. I often lose my sentinel when I am busy focusing on keeping my GM away from bullying tacs/heroes because I am frantically microing them. In this short time you can turn on kraken rounds and seriously hurt the sent, even catch it off guard and kill it.

3 - Suppression works quite well. Not to say that IG can't deal with suppression, but because they dont have jump troops they are much less well equipped to hard counter it in T1.

4 - Forget sniper rifles. A slow attacking, high damage, single target weapon like that has no use against most IG builds. I find that scouts with shotguns and a sergeant are the best way to deal with IG, their two abilities are good for dealing with HWTs or at least disrupting GM squads. They are also good for singling out a melee commander and putting him/her down quickly.

5 - Get assault marines quickly if you can. Catachans can disrupt them, but bringing down an ASM squad before it seriously hurts your army can take a lot of time and attention not just from catachans but from other units as well... they soak up a lot of damage and can distract a large portion of an IG army early on.

[Tex]

For FC:

Stormshield is rape against IG in early game.
Use the tac drop! IG cannot stop steel rain.

For TM:

2 Tac and 2 snipers + artificer armor on TM. You will have a truck load of up front DPS, your TM will be almost unkillable in green cover, and it should force out some tech choices from your opponent. Just keep moving forward from green cover to green cover.

[Adeptus Noobus]

For FC:

Stormshield is rape against IG in early game.
Use the tac drop! IG cannot stop steel rain.

For TM:

2 Tac and 2 snipers + artificer armor on TM. You will have a truck load of up front DPS, your TM will be almost unkillable in green cover, and it should force out some tech choices from your opponent. Just keep moving forward from green cover to green cover.

As somebody who has tried and failed to make the TM work against e.g. the Inquisitor, could you maybe go into more detail of how the double snipers would come into play? The build I faced (when playing vs Atlas on Jarilos Forge and Calderis) iirc was: GM - Sent - GM - Catachans - Spotters. There might even have been a 3rd GM squad. So he went for very heavy T1 which I could not counter effectively since he could camp my power endlessly and lock me in base, leaving me no wiggle room. Once I hit T2, he dropped a Banewolf and the game was done anyway.
I would appreciate your input here. I agree with you regarding the FC. He has it so much easier against IG (Stormshield or Halo + Artificer).

[Atlas]

For the record, the build was in fact Start GM - Sent - GM - GM - [depends but usually catas] - spots if needed.

[Tex]

Well, against that as TM, I would have my starting scouts, then tac, then scouts. Pending on the very early game and how much red I can get from pot shotting guardsmen with my TM and Tacs, I will make the decision whether I should build my second tac squad, or if I am going to call it in.

If I decide that I am going to call it in, I will build a dev squad upon seeing 3x GM and then begin to get sniper upgrades. I will have my scouts re positioning constantly to secure as many guardsmen kills as possible in order make sure that as soon as I'm ready to hit the drop timing, it will be a devastating punch. You should use the drop to advance towards your opponent's power farm. No flamer will be necessary. Squeeze in the artificer whenever you see a good timing. It's a great thing to have mines layed on the path to your power, especially if you can down the sentinel or keep it off your half of the map.

If I decide that I am going to build my 2nd tac squad, this likely means I will stay on 2 gens to compensate for the extra req needed to build the tac squad. Again, seeing the 3 GM a natural response is to get a Dev as your 4th unit, and then follow up with your second tac squad. You can do this, or you can go strait for the sniper upgrades and begin to put huge pressure on the sent. Because you aren't committed to needing red, this becomes very viable. You will essentially cause 2 GM squads to be useless at most points of T1 because they will be busy repair the sent. With this in mind, you should be able to grab some extra map that you wouldn't normally have against IG in T1, and use that extra income to counteract your lack of a third gen.

Hope this helps! (normally I would try to go into more detail, but I'm hanging out with my son and he now wants me to draw him a space marine...)

[Adeptus Noobus]

...

That helped me out tremendously. Thank you very much.