Imperial Guard Chimera

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

I was going to post this in the Imperial Guard Thread but had been locked so I'm making a new thread.

After the armor upgrade was removed from the Chimera I'm really missing some sort of Armor upgrade for it.

Maybe just a simple 100+ HP upgrade like most of the other Transports have that would be great, just to buff it's survivability rate a little bit.

[saltychipmunk]

ehh at this point the chimera is just there so you have a place to hide your squishy ig units from arty and jump units.

whether or not that is worth the pop, req and power is debatable but ive won and lost games because of proper use of that unit.

[Torpid]

I've been using the chimera a lot less recently because of the med bunkers which honestly, even in 1v1, are a good alternative as they allow you to get those quick ogryns out and they can really screw up any fast walker your foe may get. Still, all IG t2 choices are rather niche, they are all quite specialist, I mean, unlike SM where atm you get a dread like at least 60% of the time and you can always get some p devs and they will help assuming you are floating req, IG t2 units will actually just bleed you and waste your capping time if got in the wrong scenario.

In the correct scenario such as beating your foe to t2 and getting off a good gen bash on a relatively large map or to out maneuver a foe who wants to play the capping game the chimera is very effective. However, that been said, I do feel it's just a tad pricey considering it really demands a lot of upgrades on those GM in order to make it worthwhile. All in all I would like to see a slight power cost reduction to about 60 power, however I really doubt making it any more durable is a good solution, it's already a nuisance to kill and you generally counter it by bleeding the gm around it, not by killing it.

[saltychipmunk]

id go cheaper than that , I think all the expensive troop transport units are overpriced

a hold over from, the TIOW update. the razor back use to be 240 req 40 power prior to TIOW . It was only because back then t2 was only 40 power to research that all troop transports were nerfed in costs.

now that t2 is expensive , there really is no need to have excessively expensive troop carriers .

[Dark Riku]

id go cheaper than that , I think all the expensive troop transport units are overpriced

a hold over from, the TIOW update. the razor back use to be 240 req 40 power prior to TIOW . It was only because back then t2 was only 40 power to research that all troop transports were nerfed in costs.

Maybe you want to make a separate thread for this?
Since this one is about the chimera specifically.

And I agree. The Chimera could go down to 60 power again.
The reason why it got a price increase was because of the no power IG T1 I believe.
But that has changed since then.

[Toilailee]

I suppose chim could go back to 60 power but transports are generally in a very good spot in elite, they perform well and are well priced.
There's absolutely no need for drastic changes like reducing their cost by 1/3. That would mean chim/razor would cost just a tad more than set up teams and it would change the meta conciderable.

[saltychipmunk]

keep in mind that many races have req only av upgrades as well or very low power av.

troop transports aren't especially tanky. one av unit usually more than enough to deter or even kill them.

you point out that devs cost power, but they can also be purchased in t1 meaning it is fully possible to make them a cheaper counter to a fast tech troop transport.

but alas that is a story for another thread, as for the chimera strictly comparing it to other troop transports. It is a tad bit lacking.

the smoke effect on the razor is much more helpful as a means to cover vulnerable units.

and the eldar grav tank can atleast dent other light vehicles with its weapons.

next to that the chimera really only has the ability to slightly increase its dps , but its dps is already rather low so the boost when you throw in a squad is still negligible

[Nurland]

No other race has better transport synergy than 2x GM with chimera though it has been nerfed a bit as GM repair rate has been slowed down a bit.

Going from 45dps to 86-87dps is negligible? How exactly?

[Dark Riku]

They all have different traits.

As mentioned by Nurland the chimera's dps increases when a unit is inside.
And the gm synergy is awesome.

The Wave Serpent also cost a lot more than other transports.

[Kvek]

They all have different traits.

As mentioned by Nurland the chimera's dps increases when a unit is inside.
And the gm synergy is awesome.

The Wave Serpent also cost a lot more than other transports.

you mean falcon, right ?

[saltychipmunk]

No other race has better transport synergy than 2x GM with chimera though it has been nerfed a bit as GM repair rate has been slowed down a bit.

Going from 45dps to 86-87dps is negligible? How exactly?

in t1 i would say yeah 87 is alot, which is why the chimera rush / no power ig t1 is potent.
but in t2 when alot of races get their beefy upgrades it suddenly doesn't feel as damaging to me at least, that is of course just my opinion on it.

usually it shines best when picking off singled out exposed squads. but do you really need to dedicate 32+ pop in tanks and guardsmen to get that effect. A capping slugga squad will usually be forced off by a razorback just as quickly and those are the types of units that you would target using chimeras.

[Nurland]

You do not need to keep a GM squad inside the Chim to gain the extra dps. If you have a squad that doesn't contribute to the fight otherwise (for example a Las HWT when the enemy has no vehicles) you can always store it inside Chim and gain the extra dps.

Also you a GM or ST squad or something along the lines needs to retreat or be garrisoned inside the vehicle to survie, you gain a pretty decent bonus for keeping them in the field. Especially as you can reinforce them after the engagement. Provided that the Chimera survived.

Over 40dps piercing dmg increase is not neglible except against vehicles and SHI. It's roughly the same dps vanilla CSM squad does.

This is just my take on the things. I'm not an IG so player though so what do I know.

[Toilailee]

Chim has 200hp more hp than razorback without its extra armor (that costs another 30 power).

[Dark Riku]

you mean falcon, right ?

Yes 40K people usually use Wave Serpents which are also troop transports :p Herp.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i really don't get why they didn't put a wave serpent into the game. it would make a lot more sense in several ways. less iconic though.

i think transports are in a pretty good spot at the moment, although i still find the falcon prohibitively expensive in t2.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

Heh, didn't expect this subject to get so much debate.

The Razorback has 400 HP by default, and the Chimera has 500, now with the Razorback health upgrade it takes it up to 600 which is still 100 more than the Chimera.

Now I'm suggesting that the Chimera get a 100+ HP upgrade to make it more durable late T2/T3, maybe 20/25 power + 100 req to get this upgrade, as a substitute now that it doesn't have the Extra Armor upgrade like it had in retail and previous versions of Elite mod. It's combat efficiency and synergy with Guardsmen is excellent but I'm missing having an option to boost it's durability after the Extra Armor upgrade was removed.

[Torpid]

It's hardly an argument to say that the removal of extra armour means it's now missing something because honestly it was a pretty poor upgrade anyway. I mean you were allowing your foe to shoot away your resources effectively.

[saltychipmunk]

it was useful in a pinch when you could use it as a way to repair it enough to weather that last rocket or av barraged before you managed to get it out of range.

Lots of those light vehicles get murdered when at a sliver of hp on the edge of safety .

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

I don't play Orks very often but I just saw how cheap the Deffdread is. Comparing: Chimera 300/65 500hp, Deff Dread 250/60 + burnas 'n bitz140/20 gives it 1050hp and the Wartrukk 200/30, with it's HP upgrade at 100/30 takes it up to 550 hp.

[Toilailee]

Deff dread is an offensive walker while chimera is mainly a support transport.

There is no reason to compare their hp.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

Deff dread is an offensive walker while chimera is mainly a support transport.

There is no reason to compare their hp.

It was more a comparison in price rather than HP.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Deff dread is an offensive walker while chimera is mainly a support transport.

There is no reason to compare their hp.

It was more a comparison in price rather than HP.

Not a fair comparison though, as they are completely unrelated. I'm guessing that your point of view is that, despite their difference in combat roles, you get more "bang" for your buck when using a deff dread when looking at it upfront, but it's still a little unfair. You'd have to fairly compare it to other transports and that's it - they function the same and do the same thing, and give you whatever it is you get. And for what it's worth, the Chimera does a pretty decent job with the extra DPS despite the loss of a sliver of health.

And you're also disregarding one thing when it comes to how a Wartruck functions versus a chimera. Even if we disregard the HP on the truck with the upgrade, it's much easier for a squad of GM to repair then it is for sluggas. In combat, the truck drops off those sluggas (and in usually close proximity to the fight to avoid things like suppression or taking unnecessary ranged damage) which puts them at a distinct disadvantage as you have to forgo possible repairs in favor of having them rush into the enemy. Whereas, with GMs - and it's usually safe to say that if anyone takes a Chimera into their build, there's usually double GM's inside - you're usually sitting in close proximity to the chimera and are able to both repair and shoot your weapons, all in the while, jumping in from a safer distance and thus are able to get away much easier with a chimera. When I see a wartruck, I usually go in to quickly punish ork players by upgrading a sentinel or even getting something like storm troopers out on the field. And it's honestly all the more easier when half the time, the orks have to bring it up close and personal for it to be made effective with sluggas sitting inside.

So all things considered, you have to look at it more situationally - which has been mentioned earlier in the thread for most of IG's t2 units. Though I personally suck with the Chimera (or haven't been using it correctly), I know I've seen a lot of good players use it and they've done some amazing things with it.

I would however, like to see upgrades on that thing in a different manner. I've always wondered why they've got a banewolf as a drop for the Inquis alone, while not giving the Chimera potential upgrades. Sure, it'd be awkward to see a vehicle upgrade into something totally different, but I reall feel like the banewolf is one of the most underused commander powers in the game - I've probably seen it used once, literally. If these things were more available for IG, it'd make for more interesting uses of the chimera (I'd like to say Hell Hounds would also be a nice addition, but they end result of being anti LI and structure would be already similar to the banewolf and unneeded).

[Torpid]

Bane wolfs are amazing. 200 red seems a little bit much though, means you can't really ever get one at the right time (early t2) without going for a heavy t1 as IG and HT1 as IG is suicidal.

I understand they were OP in retail, however I really think they're UP now due to that red cost. I think a decrease in the red cost back down to 150 (same as autarch) but bumping up the power cost to 50 would be a nice change, because IG no longer have that power free t1 and catachans don't pull half as much weight for 60 power anymore.

[Orkfaeller]

^

I really want to see the Hellhound in the game, in fact been planning on making its own thread on that topic for quite some while now. But not as a chimera upgrade.

I mean, yeah, they are using the same chassis, or a similar one atleast, but it would still be wrong IMHO. You dont turn a Rhino into a Predator either. -eh-

[Asmon]

Adding the Banewolf in the HQ could be done indeed. With a lower cost for the call-in thus the Inq still benefits from it.

[Panda]

I second this. I'm in favour of units being able to be bought at the HQ (termies aside), but called in for a lower cost + some red.

New thread for Bane Wolf as buyable from HQ?

[Toilailee]

Banewolf call in was nerfed for a reason and it is still very viable global.

[Torpid]

Banewolf call in was nerfed for a reason and it is still very viable global.

Yes, I know. However the issue at the moment is that 200 red is really hard to achieve for IG who ideally don't want to prolong t1. If I ever get 200 red as the inquisitor I will, 80% of the time, get a bane wolf. Yet, that's quite a rare occurrence. Surely a better nerf would be to keep the red low and easily achievable, but nerf the actual unit itself by increasing its power cost/req cost/decreasing its speed/health.

[Orkfaeller]

I'd keep the Banewolf Inquisitor exclusive and add the Hellhound to all IG commanders.

A bit less damage and/or range and maybe without the uh Scorch ability.

IMHO the Banewolf is a bit too exotic and I think the Inquistor deserves her exclusive unit.

Similar situation to the Venerable Dreadnought of the Techmarine in comparision to the vanilla Dread.

[Vapor]

I'd keep the Banewolf Inquisitor exclusive and add the Hellhound to all IG commanders.

A bit less damage and/or range and maybe without the uh Scorch ability.

IMHO the Banewolf is a bit too exotic and I think the Inquistor deserves her exclusive unit.

Similar situation to the Venerable Dreadnought of the Techmarine in comparision to the vanilla Dread.

Just think of how kommando nob players everywhere felt when the kommando drop was moved out of t2.