Page 1 of 1
Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 9:17 am
by sk4zi
like title says, i feel that the vengance rounds should damage buildings.
they are a softcounter upgrade for HBs versus vehicles or at least they were designed for that.
i feel like they should also be able to target Generators then.
or at least Turrets. soon ago i recognized that they do absolutely no damage to built turrets...
is this intentional?
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 3:24 pm
by Orkfaeller
IMHO the Advanced targeting is pretty underwhelming against anything that the normal HB couldnt damage on its own allready.
Dont get me wrong, I dont dislike the Upgrade, I like it to chew enemy infantry, soft counter enemy set up teams and give Chaos Lords, Hive Tyrants, Sentinels etc nasty suprises when they try to close in.
But against "armored" targets, that it actually should be decend against it really doesnt do much.
I notice no difference against powernodes etc and vehicles that it should soft ( soft ) counter it just doesnt do enough damage.
Like any other Supression-Setup-Team its damage falls off the further the target is away, even if advanced targeting is activated. Meaning; to damage vehicles ( and Im talking about stuff soft stuff like Wartrucks, Blood Crushers, Deathdredds etc )
they would have to get sooo close, they actually should allready be running as they would get meleed a second later.
____________________________________________
For what it costs its not a bad upgrade, and I enjoy using it. But its effect ( or lack there of ) against vehicles / buildings etc is almost neglectable.
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 4:37 pm
by saltychipmunk
it was a balance decision made a long time ago , it was deemed unfair that a set a lone set up team could kill a gen farm, and suppress and kill anyone who tried to defend it.
this was back when the best nade bashing tactics was to rush a setup unit and cap a gen farm or spam grenades ( 3 grenades killed a gen back then)
also vengence rounds are only on one set up unit , which would most certainly give an unfair advantage in t1 to devastators over the other setup units
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 5:17 pm
by Dark Riku
saltychipmunk wrote:it was a balance decision made a long time ago , it was deemed unfair that a set a lone set up team could kill a gen farm, and suppress and kill anyone who tried to defend it.
It doesn't suppress when the ability is activated.
saltychipmunk wrote:also vengence rounds are only on one set up unit , which would most certainly give an unfair advantage in t1 to devastators over the other setup units
Except that all the other setupteams have a trait that works in their advantage.
Instant suppression, infiltration, etc. A heavy bolter has this upgrade as their "trait".
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 5:34 pm
by Torpid
No, a heavy bolter's trait is that its default damage is the highest out of all the suppression teams. The fact that HB devs can get vengeance rounds is merely a bonus, because SM are meant to flexible.
Also, try using vengeance rounds alongside a librarian if you want some good AV, trust me, it's rather effective, especially vs transports.
And no, it shouldn't be able to bash gens, it's too versatile for a t1 squad to be able to control armies AND bash gens. One of the main weaknesses of either suppression or sniper spams is that it results in not being able to pressure your opponents generators in any significant manner.
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 5:35 pm
by saltychipmunk
Dark Riku wrote:saltychipmunk wrote:it was a balance decision made a long time ago , it was deemed unfair that a set a lone set up team could kill a gen farm, and suppress and kill anyone who tried to defend it.
It doesn't suppress when the ability is activated.
saltychipmunk wrote:also vengence rounds are only on one set up unit , which would most certainly give an unfair advantage in t1 to devastators over the other setup units
Except that all the other setupteams have a trait that works in their advantage.
Instant suppression, infiltration, etc. A heavy bolter has this upgrade as their "trait".
back then the non suppression ability killed gens too , i forgot to add that , sry, but still the ability is not permanent you can easily show up to the gen farm , pop the ability and then once its on cool down you lock down the area.
as for calling the vengeance rounds a trait , thats fine , but we are adding another trait to them in the form of gen bashing.
then would it not logically be fair to say that the other setups should also get comparable trait modifications?
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 5:46 pm
by Arbit
The ability to suppress, bash gens, and have a soft AV counter all on one T1 unit sounds bad to me.
I think HB devs are problematic for a different reason (heavy infantry armor on a low-ish HP unit)
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 5:55 pm
by Dark Riku
That Torpid Gamer wrote:No, a heavy bolter's trait is that its default damage is the highest out of all the suppression teams. The fact that HB devs can get vengeance rounds is merely a bonus, because SM are meant to flexible.
The difference in damage between the suppression teams is negligible imo.
And even if this mattered your statement would be false.
Shurycan raw DPS: 240
IG heavy bolter raw DPS: 223.73
Heavy bolter raw DPS: 216.39
Havoc raw DPS: 204.88
They all do 300dmg per burst but with different modifiers. Except the lootas who do 390dmg per burst (and I also don't know where they fit in this picture).
And keep in mind SM's have to buy their "trait" when others just have them.
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 6:10 pm
by Ace of Swords
I would guess their trait is having decent damage + moderately fast supression rate, basically the most generalistic thing, but imo it's fine as it is.
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 6:18 pm
by Dark Riku
Ace of Swords wrote:I would guess their trait is having decent damage + moderately fast supression rate, basically the most generalistic thing, but imo it's fine as it is.
Decent damage = 2nd lowest? They suppress the slowest of them all -.-
(Excluding Lootas because I'm not sure about these guys exact numbers atm.)
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 8:07 pm
by Codex
I remember back in the day when Shuriken cannons cost 210/0 and the best strat would be to buy 2 of these and camp on gens with one shuriken at point blank range. Fastest early gen bash in the game! (Then again T1 stikkbommas could kill a gen with each volley...)
In the end, the metagame (and game design) has moved away from the FAST TECH AS FAST AS POSSIBLE to a much slower paced game (e.g. T1 used to cost 50? (75?) power, ASM used to cost 25 power, etc...) while the actual power contribution of the generators has not changed since day 1. Thus accordingly the value and permanency of generators has to be increased compared to before, and it did. Losing your gen farm is generally far more punishing as the game has moved towards heavier T1, more upkeep and much higher tech costs and duration (used to be 30 seconds?).
TL;DR: I liked the change where they gave suppression teams a terrible damage modifier against gens, and it's foundational the game and the pace of the game as we know it. Please do not give suppression teams good gen bash options in T1.
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 8:51 pm
by Lulgrim
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Thu 10 Oct, 2013 11:50 pm
by Forestradio
Not sure why you need heavy bolter to bash gens when you can use a flamer for 65/15 or whatever it is.
It's a nice lore based change for sure (stuff good vs buildings is good vs vehicles too) but don't really see how it is necessary
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Fri 11 Oct, 2013 10:48 am
by sk4zi
That Torpid Gamer wrote:No, a heavy bolter's trait is that its default damage is the highest out of all the suppression teams. The fact that HB devs can get vengeance rounds is merely a bonus, because SM are meant to flexible.
sure that´s not the Schurrican Wheapons Platform which has the highest damage?
i also dont claim more dmg vs vehicles.
its just structures.
@salty youre right, but there it was the devastor overall without any skill.
vengance Roundes came in the game i think with Chaos Rising - way later than these days.
it doesn´t last very long, so actually you shouldnt be able to kill a gen even if it does high damage to buildings. or at least a deva alone wouldn´t be able to do that.
a purgation squad can also controll armys (even more this patch) AND genbash!
in T2 they are vehicle soft counter by giving up suppression but still have good gen and inf damage. do they sound bad to you too?
so actually im ok with no gen damage, but it doesnt soung logical to me. also its not that balance thread you want us to believe
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Fri 11 Oct, 2013 1:11 pm
by Kvek
And they are also low-range, while devs are long range.
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 10:18 am
by sk4zi
indeed kevk. even longer range with that skill.
it was not to call purgation OP or so, just to debilitate the Argument that a CC squad must not have a gen bash potential.
so as is sayed. i dont need it, it was just to ask.
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 2:19 pm
by Torpid
sk4zi wrote:indeed kevk. even longer range with that skill.
it was not to call purgation OP or so, just to debilitate the Argument that a CC squad must not have a gen bash potential.
so as is sayed. i dont need it, it was just to ask.
Purgation is NOT a CC unit. It controls one squad at best and even then you're lucky. Flamer doesn't equate to CC, even with mild suppression.
Re: Heavy Bolter Vengance Rounds vs Gens
Posted: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 3:03 pm
by sk4zi
if you say so ...
i thought its supression rate was increased again?