Veteran Marines: Put in the Stronghold?

[Kithrixx]

Something that bothers me about the Sternguard and the Vanguard is that they have to be summoned to the battlefield, replacing a Tactical or Assault squad that were previously present. There are (in my opinion) several problems with this:

• This sacrifices whatever levels/experience the squad already had.
• This sacrifices whatever gear upgrades the squad already had, wasting resources and possibly valuable weapons/grenades.
• A pro rather than a con, replacing the squad means that the upgrade can be used as a "cheap" battlefield reinforcement, something that the other races lack outside of commander abilities.

At first I was under the impression that Sternguard/Vanguard were done in this fashion because there wasn't enough room in the Stronghold. Which, y'know, that's fair. However, upon examining the Stronghold, there's an open slot in Tier 2 (when the Sternguard becomes available) and an open slot in Tier 3 (when the Vanguard becomes available), so I am rather confused as to why they are done in the fashion that they are rather than being simply built from the main building.

Is there a reason other than stylistic preferences that they were implemented in the way that they were?

[Raffa]

They rarely, if ever, be viable choices if bought from the HQ. Prices would be high and they would never be seen. You cannot justify saving those resources for them at that stage, it makes no sense.

I understand where you're coming from and maybe I haven't been very clear. But it would be a very bad idea to move them to the HQ.

Although all of Riku's chit-chat has finally convinced me that Vanguards should be in T2. If you want to sacrifice the potential for meltabomb in exchange for possible longer-term benefits and extra power melee I guess that's reasonable. If they are moved back to T2 then plz take away the extra health regen they get.

Cuz dey be bullcrap in T3

[Torpid]

ASM already beat every other melee squad in t2, no way should vanguard be t2, those guys are insane, crushing ogryns head's like ogryns cost the same req as guardsmen.

[Kithrixx]

ASM already beat every other melee squad in t2, no way should vanguard be t2, those guys are insane, crushing ogryns head's like ogryns cost the same req as guardsmen.

They would be Tier 3, because that's the point at which they unlock now. There's no reason to put Vanguard in Tier 2.

[Dark Riku]

ASM already beat every other melee squad in t2,

No straight up lies please.

There's no reason to put Vanguard in Tier 2.

I'm very interested in your reasoning behind this. Because they are useless right now.

[Kithrixx]

There's no reason to put Vanguard in Tier 2.

I'm very interested in your reasoning behind this. Because they are useless right now.

Mostly because they lack the space in Tier 2 and mostly because I would be interested in seeing them get a handful of buffs once moved to make them worth it, possibly grenades of some variety.

[Forestradio]

ASM already beat every other melee squad in t2, no way should vanguard be t2, those guys are insane, crushing ogryns head's like ogryns cost the same req as guardsmen.

I'm really really confused by this. There are several melee squads who will handily thrash asm even if asm use merciless strike, simply by nature of their sheer dps and/or power melee.

Wipe Floor with ASM
Ogryns
Purifiers
Nemesis focus interceptors
stormboyz with nob

Can Beat ASM (depends on how well jump/merciless strike are used)
Aspect shees with exarch
burna sluggas with nob


Could you please clarify this? I would really appreciate a way of making my ASM beat every other melee squad in T2.

[Nurland]

In T2 ASM do not have any sort of uppert hand imo. Interceptors do the same thing better (for a higher cost). And pretty much every single dedicated melee squad (and most jump squads) beats them in 1on1. Even supported I can't see ASM being superior in T2. Ofc I am open to other opinions.

However I am not going to say anything about Vanguards being T2.

[ThongSong]

I happen to like where vanguards are at the moment. They really wreck face and really teach those double tzeench marines builds a lesson in pain

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Isn't Vanguards situational upgrade for ASM, When their still lv2 upon reaching T3( Unless their Level bar is approaching lv3), You can make that transitional choice. Sternguards works well vs IG/Orkz/Nidz/Eldar, Just have to constantly switch their Ammo types accordingly to various situations . i Love Both of em, but not recommended to go Sternguard & Vanguards in t3 ,if u still want Termies

[HandSome SoddiNg]

ASM already beat every other melee squad in t2, .

Uh, Genestealers/Ogyrens/Purifiers/Sluggaboyz/Banshees/Interceptors/KCSM/Bloodletters.

[Kvek]

Isn't Vanguards situational upgrade for ASM, When their still lv2 upon reaching T3( Unless their Level bar is approaching lv3), You can make that transitional choice. Sternguards works well vs IG/Orkz/Nidz/Eldar, Just have to constantly switch their Ammo types accordingly to various situations . i Love Both of em, but not recommended to go Sternguard & Vanguards in t3 ,if u still want Termies

If Asms are level 2 in t3, there's no real reason to buy vans, wasting resources on something that will make dealing with tanks harder instead of buying your own predator is just a bad move.

Sterns are good, but i find them viable only vs Eldar/Orks, vs Nids/Ig flamer tacs are better imo, and flamers are also cheaper and they also level up your tacs quite quickly, so you should have a level 2 tac squad in t2 :p vs Nids if Tyrant guard comes out then Sterns are quite a good purchase since you can use Kraken Bolters against TG and then you still have hellfires.

[Sub_Zero]

With 2 sucessful knockbacks ASM are able to beat fully upgraded banshees, fully upgraded slugga boyz and fully upgraded catachans.

Even with 2 sucessful knockbacks ASM are not able to beat fully upgraded ogryns, fully upgraded khorne marines, fully upgraded purifiers and bloodletters.

I can state this with 100% confidence.

Don't like the idea to put them in the stronghold. Just buff them accordingly. Vanguard veterans seem fine for me. Improved health regeneration helps. But maybe something else? Knockback effect when leap into combat?

[Bahamut]

With 2 sucessful knockbacks ASM are able to beat fully upgraded banshees, fully upgraded slugga boyz and fully upgraded catachans.

Even with 2 sucessful knockbacks ASM are not able to beat fully upgraded ogryns, fully upgraded khorne marines, fully upgraded purifiers and bloodletters.

what... the... hell?.

1. How would you jump twice at a squad that's meleeing the ASM squad?
2. Why would you rather jump twice if you can use merciless strike?

[Lulgrim]

Jump + Merciless = 2 knockbacks...

[saltychipmunk]

i should that asm would lose to khorns and ogryns. if they beat those units , then those units really would have no right to exist.

[Sub_Zero]

Jump + Merciless = 2 knockbacks...

This. By the way, I like to give them yet another knockback - purification rites heal.

[Torpid]

Ok, well that was a bit of an overreaction. Sorry for the miswording, I meant they already beat all other t1 melee squads come t2. Obviously they don't beat stuff like KCSM who are meant to be a defensive melee unit more so than an offensive one, or ogryns who are substitute walkers.

Regardless my point is that vanguard would be too strong, pretty sure vans slaughter KCSM, and if they retained their levels, well that would be totally shits and giggles. Under no circumstances whatsoever should vanguards with their current stats be implemented as a t2 unit, it would be absolutely insane.

I'm only saying that because for some reason Raffa has fallen for Riku's rhetoric



This thread is fairly conclusive though on what it's asking - no, we couldn't put them in the stronghold because they would cost absolutely tonnes and just not be worth it.

[Sub_Zero]

KCSM who are meant to be a defensive melee unit more so than an offensive one

They have high speed and have nothing to stop melee units. They are offensive. Heretics are defensive. Since they force you to engage them (doomblast) and they allow a ranged squad to get away. But to be honest khorne marines do quite good in defence role because of high damage they deal.

And I don't think too that vanguard veterans should be a t2 upgrade.

[Nurland]

KCSM being offensive or defensive is a matter of play style. Imo the more the game progresses, the more defensive their role becomes.

[Dark Riku]

Mostly because they lack the space in Tier 2 and mostly because I would be interested in seeing them get a handful of buffs once moved to make them worth it, possibly grenades of some variety.

Moving the Vangaurd upgrade to T2 requires no space in the HQ UI. I'm confused :/

With 2 sucessful knockbacks ASM are able to beat fully upgraded banshees, fully upgraded slugga boyz and fully upgraded catachans.

That's not even a certainty. And you won't be jumping these squads anyways.
Asm jump on the suppression teams etc.

I meant they already beat all other t1 melee squads come t2.

That's still not true at all.

Regardless my point is that vanguard would be too strong, pretty sure vans slaughter KCSM, and if they retained their levels, well that would be totally shits and giggles. Under no circumstances whatsoever should vanguards with their current stats be implemented as a t2 unit, it would be absolutely insane.

I'm sure you have very good reasons for this statement...
Please share because I sure don't see why.

[Sub_Zero]

Level 1 vanguard veterans do more damage than level 4 assault marines. I am sure they will win against level 1-2 khorne marines (with jump and merciless strike indeed) since level 1-2 assault marines can put up a good fight and level 1 vanguard veterans are better than level 1-2 assault marines by all parameters (melee skill does not count and other minor parameters)

Asm jump on the suppression teams etc.

Yes I know but there are a lot of situations in the game when you have to fight melee fighters

[Nurland]

Vanguard do 1dps less than KCSM, they have more hp and hp regen so they should beat KCSM quite handily. Leveled KCSM will put up more of a fight due to increase in health, dps and melee skill so they will not get specialed but will do specials. VG also have jump and merciless to tip the scales in their favor. They probably won't be jumping the KCSM though.

Probably the biggest issue with VG is the loss of melee skill which makes them get tossed around by leveled melee squads.

Does the VG Thunder Hammer have that passive 15% chance of KB?

[Asmon]

It should have if the weapon stats came from a mere copy-paste.

[Torpid]

KCSM who are meant to be a defensive melee unit more so than an offensive one

They have high speed and have nothing to stop melee units. They are offensive. Heretics are defensive. Since they force you to engage them (doomblast) and they allow a ranged squad to get away. But to be honest khorne marines do quite good in defence role because of high damage they deal.

I say they're defensive because if I wanted some melee to spearhead my force typically I would get bloodletters since they have two abilities that are great for initiating. Khorne marines on the other hand are fantastic counter-initiation because of their specials and high speed meaning you can really punish jump squads and the like, potentially killing them in retreat. KCSM don't really have the hp to charge forward into melee unless you have the CL go in before them and use worship, I find they work much nicer defending havocs+TCSM.

To be fair I find doomblast's suppression more useful against ranged unit than melee, I only use it in melee mainly for the large damage spike. As the game progresses it's true that the suppression would be better than the raw damage because although tics do good dps in t1, come t2+ their damage is not great, however at that point you have KCSM to counter-initiate and stronger melee options in general. I think tics are nicely balanced between offense and defence.

[Sub_Zero]

I agree that khorne marines without any set up measure (khorne worship, sigil of the rift, raptors jump on ranged squads, bloodcrusher disrupts stuff etc) in most cases can't reach targets without bleed.

[Dark Riku]

Level 1 vanguard veterans do more damage than level 4 assault marines.

They actually do the same amount of damage. Just with different damage types.
So VG do more damage vs commanders and (S)HI.

(melee skill does not count and other minor parameters)

MS is by no means a small parameter. Nor is the increase of melee damage.

Probably the biggest issue with VG is the loss of melee skill which makes them get tossed around by leveled melee squads.

[Lulgrim]

Does the VG Thunder Hammer have that passive 15% chance of KB?

It did originally, but I'm not sure if we removed it @ some patch. Can't check right now.

[Kvek]

Does the VG Thunder Hammer have that passive 15% chance of KB?

It did originally, but I'm not sure if we removed it @ some patch. Can't check right now.

Yes it has that passive 15% kb chance.

[Sub_Zero]

They actually do the same amount of damage. Just with different damage types.
So VG do more damage vs commanders and (S)HI.

I wanted to say that level 4 assault marines dealt less damage than level 1 veterans to heavy armored units (super heavy armored)

MS is by no means a small parameter. Nor is the increase of melee damage.

I meant the health pool, damage bonuses and energy as the main parameters. The minor parameters for me are melee skill, health regeneration, supression resistance etc. And why I consider melee skill as a minor parameter because with each level you gain only 1 point of melee skill which is not a huge difference. Fight between level 1 unit with 70 melee skill and level 4 unit with 73 melee skill will not be easily won just by special attacks from the unit with a higher melee skill. Eventhough level 1 unit with 60 melee skill can stand against level 1 unit with 70 melee skill, I can't say that special attacks come into play one by one and make fighting versus a unit with a higher melee skill impossible.