Sniper setup/tear-down too long?

[xerrol nanoha]

Why is the tear-down time for non-exclusive sniper squads so long, while the Vindicare assassin has no setup or tear-down time (all those noscopes)? It seemed that while the setup time is reasonable and dramatic, the tear-down time for sniper teams is their greatest vulnerability which the Vindicare Assassin lacks.
Is this a new precedent?
I'm curious what people think about this topic.

[Ace of Swords]

The setup time and the de-setup is fine as it is imo, the VA is just op/broken at the moment.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

as a single model squad he is very vulnerable. he can't cloak or sprint. the lack of time acts a bit as a counter to that. haven't seen him yet but it wouldn't surprise me if he's a bit rough at this point, balance wise.

[Caeltos]

The setup time and the de-setup is fine as it is imo, the VA is just op/broken at the moment.

More like....

He's not fucking finished.

[Ace of Swords]

Don't release unfinished content then?

There is no publisher or contract that is going to lose money, and if you are going to pull this off, atleast give it the standard cost of all the T2 subcommnaders.

[Caeltos]

Don't release unfinished content then?

There is no publisher or contract that is going to lose money, and if you are going to pull this off, atleast give it the standard cost of all the T2 subcommnaders.

Or you know, the purpose of the beta build that was recently released is for testing purposes primarily. Some people just cannot for the love of their life grasp the concept or the idea, and the purpose behind it.

I can accept questions about the unit, but criticising the unit itself when it's not finished is just fucking stupid to be honest. Everything is pretty explained even in the unit preview.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=343

do not expect a very high natural cost for the unit. It will be the lowest of all Tier 2 units.

The price of the up-front cost is not going to change, due to the general timing optimization requirement for a GK to field a neccasary anti-vehicle countermeasure.

Like I mentioned, he's a cheap-up front unit, but the wargear/costs will be substantially higher and possibly even overshadow most of the units in the game in terms of overall cost dumps you need to make. Infact, his wargear cost in total will round up to almost the double value of the unit itself. Heavily influencing the timings & build incorporations you make as the game progresses.

Besides, with the beta build - we can spot the bugs & issues with the unit itself, like the glaring issue that his round swap = weapon cooldown resets back to normal. Meaning the frequency of damage output and general map control is way to strong at the moment, a bug that is heavily influencing the general balance of the unit.

Without testing this in a live enviroment, we're unable to determine weither a unit will be okay on a big release, or not. So it's better to generally release the content to people so they can chip in with spotting bugs for us, if they're unable to provide with essential and crucial feedback - then they might as well not just get the "beta" updates in the first place.

[Broodwich]

Generally speaking, I think he would fit better in t1, with t2 upgrades for no setup/tear down and av rounds. Gk really doest have a long range weapon that makes someone come to them

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Don't release unfinished content then?

There is no publisher or contract that is going to lose money, and if you are going to pull this off, atleast give it the standard cost of all the T2 subcommnaders.

Or you know, the purpose of the beta build that was recently released is for testing purposes primarily. Some people just cannot for the love of their life grasp the concept or the idea, and the purpose behind it.

I can accept questions about the unit, but criticising the unit itself when it's not finished is just fucking stupid to be honest. Everything is pretty explained even in the unit preview.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=343

do not expect a very high natural cost for the unit. It will be the lowest of all Tier 2 units.

The price of the up-front cost is not going to change, due to the general timing optimization requirement for a GK to field a neccasary anti-vehicle countermeasure.

Like I mentioned, he's a cheap-up front unit, but the wargear/costs will be substantially higher and possibly even overshadow most of the units in the game in terms of overall cost dumps you need to make. Infact, his wargear cost in total will round up to almost the double value of the unit itself. Heavily influencing the timings & build incorporations you make as the game progresses.

Besides, with the beta build - we can spot the bugs & issues with the unit itself, like the glaring issue that his round swap = weapon cooldown resets back to normal. Meaning the frequency of damage output and general map control is way to strong at the moment, a bug that is heavily influencing the general balance of the unit.

Without testing this in a live enviroment, we're unable to determine weither a unit will be okay on a big release, or not. So it's better to generally release the content to people so they can chip in with spotting bugs for us, if they're unable to provide with essential and crucial feedback - then they might as well not just get the "beta" updates in the first place.

Sorry, noticed you mentioned something about wargear on him. I only played a little bit with him the day before, but I noticed he didn't have any - in the near future, will use of say his AV options be an upgrade, or will that come standard and if so, what sort of wargear are we looking at?

[xerrol nanoha]

Although I should point out I have no stake in the balance itself as my own skills and experience is dwarfed by 90% of the community, I can still have opinions about the look and feel for different types of units and how they play out.

With that I have two main concerns.

Firstly, before the VA, in general sniper teams fit into the category of setup teams and with that have the array of vulnerabilities and immobilities that setup teams have: i.e. vulnerability to artilery abilities like grenades/mortars/globals, as well as vulnerability to jump/teleport melee units.

Although scouts and rangers both have stealth and detection mechanisms to help them initiate combat, stealth doesn't provide a significant defense against these threats and so the 1.5 second teardown time is an integral balance choice with regard to retreating and responding to aoe burst or gapclosing melee threats.

On the other hand, the new VA, although having similar range and damage to sniper setup teams, plays out as a completley different type of unit, more akin to a zoanthrope than a sniper setup team. In this way, the lack of a teardown time renders the VA much more responsive and less vulnerable to typical anti-setup-team threats.

Secondly, from a purely aesthetic standpoint, I like the setup/windup time of sniper teams. This isn't some AAA shooter game, snipers have to get into position, setup their rifle, aim, and take the shot. Then when finished, they pack up and move somewhere else. There is an enjoyable drama to a sniper team setting up to fire (especially when infiltrated), and a natural tension to the time in which they teardown before they can move.

For the Vindicare specifically, he may as well not even have a scope so far as I've seen the animation use it. The lack of setup/teardown time and the seemless windup/winddown time make the vindicare look more like a wild west gunslinger, throwing his rifle around and often times firing at angles completely different than where the barrel is pointing.

I've seen some games and replays where a Vindicare on the chase will fire the bullet out of the rifle's stock or even his hand, as apposed to originating from the end of the barrel. Adding even the slightest setup-time of .5 seconds would solve that graphical issue, as well as provide more of the balanceless drama that I (as a spectator mostly) enjoy.

Now, with these issues aside, I could also say I am intrigued at a sniper 'setup' team having no or next to no teardown speed, as that would greatly improve the power of sniper teams in general... However, as they are so exclusive to 2.5 races now (see above: is the vindicare even a sniper/setup team as apposed to something different like the zoanthrope) I can say that having a setup/teardown time on snipers is a perfect balance solution to their strengths that can only add interest to the game.

I'm done rambling, Just felt like I wanted to say that even if it's not important.
BY THE WAY, the Vindicare looks great and I can't wait to see where it goes and how the game adjusts to meet it... (although at first I was surprised that vindicare wasn't going to the imperial guard, too much dark crusade )

TL;DR:

Setup/teardown times for setup teams adds drama, pseudorealism, and provides an interesting method for balance beyond simply adjusting stats.

However, not having a setup/teardown time on a setup team is a very powerful feature that can completely change and redefine the role and usage of that unit.

[David-CZ]

At first I didn't like the idea of him not setting up, but when I saw how fast he looses his health and how slowly he gets it back (not sure if intentionally) I suppose he's fine. Haven't had the chance to play against one yet, though. The graphic bug is unfortunate but tolerable.

Btw wouldn't it be better if the range/damage increasing ability was targetable?

[Caeltos]

Btw wouldn't it be better if the range/damage increasing ability was targetable?

I had a draft where it was. However, the problem remains that you could technically pull a 2 for 1 shot. Fire normal , use target-ability and inflict damage. It's all very problematic.

[David-CZ]

What if it had an aiming time before the shot? Something like the Snipers ulti in DOTA if you're familiar. It would then also have to be either tracking the target or it would have to return the energy if the shot isn't taken.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

The setup time and the de-setup is fine as it is imo, the VA is just op/broken at the moment.

More like....

He's not fucking finished.

i would Figuired y an Assassin has only 325 hp w only Abilities @_@. So you guys gonna reduce his Dps slightly , give him Cloak & Existing two abilities or bit more and HP Buff =D?

[xerrol nanoha]

Btw wouldn't it be better if the range/damage increasing ability was targetable?

I had a draft where it was. However, the problem remains that you could technically pull a 2 for 1 shot. Fire normal , use target-ability and inflict damage. It's all very problematic.

I can only think of three ways you could do this:
1) give the sniper shot a windup time like the Imp Guard Spotter team.
2) code the ability as a self attack/self taunt with a damage buff for that time
3) somehow link the ability cooldown to the attack cooldown via triggers?

Unrelated, would you consider doing something like Lootas, where there is a setup/teardown time, but while setup the Vindicare has free infiltration? Or is his lack of stealth meant to be an important weakness?

Is there anywhere that the vindicare's stats are posted? i.e. the elite wiki?

[Ace of Swords]

Or you know, the purpose of the beta build that was recently released is for testing purposes primarily. Some people just cannot for the love of their life grasp the concept or the idea, and the purpose behind it.

I can accept questions about the unit, but criticising the unit itself when it's not finished is just fucking stupid to be honest. Everything is pretty explained even in the unit preview.

Im sorry but im not gonna accept this excuse, you know this game very well, and actually you run all of this so you know the game better than everyone else, or atleast, in theory you do.

You should figure just on paper how overpowered this unit is, I think most of us figured that the AV shot was an ability to use once per engagment to follow up with other AV to finish off the vehicle, not a freaking lascannon with 6.5 speed that can solo dreds for 1/4 of the price while beign uncounterable, because yes, even if it had 1 HP you are never, EVER going to lose this unit with semi-decent micro, because he can escape any arty or jump troop, melee is useless vs him, snipers still have a setup time and with his sight range he is still gonna take 1 shot at them and then retreating with no consequences, tanks? Transports? Dreds? all hard countered by a single unit.

Oh yeah, and not speak how he doesn't bleed at all while bleeding everything else like mad for just 350/30.

[xerrol nanoha]

Or you know, the purpose of the beta build that was recently released is for testing purposes primarily. Some people just cannot for the love of their life grasp the concept or the idea, and the purpose behind it.

I can accept questions about the unit, but criticising the unit itself when it's not finished is just fucking stupid to be honest. Everything is pretty explained even in the unit preview.

Im sorry but im not gonna accept this excuse, you know this game very well, and actually you run all of this so you know the game better than everyone else, or atleast, in theory you do.

You should figure just on paper how overpowered this unit is, I think most of us figured that the AV shot was an ability to use once per engagment to follow up with other AV to finish off the vehicle, not a freaking lascannon with 6.5 speed that can solo dreds for 1/4 of the price while beign uncounterable, because yes, even if it had 1 HP you are never, EVER going to lose this unit with semi-decent micro, because he can escape any arty or jump troop, melee is useless vs him, snipers still have a setup time and with his sight range he is still gonna take 1 shot at them and then retreating with no consequences, tanks? Transports? Dreds? all hard countered by a single unit.

Oh yeah, and not speak how he doesn't bleed at all while bleeding everything else like mad for just 350/30.

That AV damage is comparable to a bright-lance at best, but I'm not sure its even as strong as that (i think brightlance has 2x DPS but unsure of Vindicare stats atm)

In which case, do you object to the Vindicare being an AV unit at all, or do you have a suggestion to improve balance/interest/complexity to the Vindicare in a way you think the game would benefit?

[Caeltos]

Or you know, the purpose of the beta build that was recently released is for testing purposes primarily. Some people just cannot for the love of their life grasp the concept or the idea, and the purpose behind it.

I can accept questions about the unit, but criticising the unit itself when it's not finished is just fucking stupid to be honest. Everything is pretty explained even in the unit preview.

Im sorry but im not gonna accept this excuse, you know this game very well, and actually you run all of this so you know the game better than everyone else, or atleast, in theory you do.

You should figure just on paper how overpowered this unit is, I think most of us figured that the AV shot was an ability to use once per engagment to follow up with other AV to finish off the vehicle, not a freaking lascannon with 6.5 speed that can solo dreds for 1/4 of the price while beign uncounterable, because yes, even if it had 1 HP you are never, EVER going to lose this unit with semi-decent micro, because he can escape any arty or jump troop, melee is useless vs him, snipers still have a setup time and with his sight range he is still gonna take 1 shot at them and then retreating with no consequences, tanks? Transports? Dreds? all hard countered by a single unit.

Oh yeah, and not speak how he doesn't bleed at all while bleeding everything else like mad for just 350/30.

It's not a fucking excuse, it's literally fucking fact. Besides that, fucking read the first post I made, it's not finished. So yeah, how about a nice cup of stfu until it's done. You're just annoying me now. I can't really tell if you're just being blatanly stupid on purpose or just troll.

[Codex]

Im sorry but im not gonna accept this excuse, you know this game very well, and actually you run all of this so you know the game better than everyone else, or atleast, in theory you do.

Wow. Just wow.

I'm going to emphasise the fact that you have a beta for a reason and if a beta isn't where you test out half finished assets/ideas then I don't know where else.

Can we all go back to being nice to each other and having a quiet peaceful life pls.

[xerrol nanoha]

I'm trying to have a discussion and everybody's getting angry

[Batpimp]

Don't release unfinished content then?

There is no publisher or contract that is going to lose money, and if you are going to pull this off, atleast give it the standard cost of all the T2 subcommnaders.

you could always just NOT play until its completely finished then you will no have no complaints...will you?

[Forestradio]

I would rather have a buggy OP vindicare assassin for a couple of betas and a nice smooth non-glitchy balanced one for 2.2 final than have an untested one in 2.2 final.

And it's not like a lot of people play 1v1 with GK these days..............

I'm also not going to complain about a new shiny unit since they are hard to make and hard to implement and hard to balance

[Arbit]

The problem with "It's BETA" is that the intersection of people that play the beta and people that play Elite is almost 1:1. If you refuse to play the latest beta and stick to the latest final patch then you'll have no one to play with. Having an exploit like the ammo switch thing AoS mentioned effectively impacts the entire community instead of just a team of beta testers. For these sorts of major changes (i.e. a new unit), having a short closed beta with a few people to just bug test would probably help.

Just a little well-intended advice here.

[xerrol nanoha]

Contrary to popular opinion, I would say that I am glad that 2.2b7 was released to provide ANY preview of the VA, as it allows us as a community to really engage with the new unit and build possibilities in a creative way. Taking the current build to be anything close to final is a mistake.

The purpose of this thread was to talk about how we think the Vindicare assassin and Sniper teams in general should turn out, not to talk about whether we should have the chance to talk about it at all, as we would not have the chance had the 2.2b7 not been released.

That being the case, instead of complaining about the situation, it would be more constructive to take it as an opportunity to be creative, instead of treating the event like a stumble.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Or you know, the purpose of the beta build that was recently released is for testing purposes primarily. Some people just cannot for the love of their life grasp the concept or the idea, and the purpose behind it.

I can accept questions about the unit, but criticising the unit itself when it's not
Oh yeah, and not speak how he doesn't bleed at all while bleeding everything else like mad for just 350/30.

Well Ace. He's incomplete =.=
I Knew he was a Prototype when his frigging hp was only 325 for a Sub-commander, and gives like 29 + red when dead. Extremely fragile to a Volly from a SM Dreadnaught,etc. Can't wait till he's accomplished

[Kvek]

Or you know, the purpose of the beta build that was recently released is for testing purposes primarily. Some people just cannot for the love of their life grasp the concept or the idea, and the purpose behind it.

I can accept questions about the unit, but criticising the unit itself when it's not
Oh yeah, and not speak how he doesn't bleed at all while bleeding everything else like mad for just 350/30.

Well Ace. He's incomplete =.=
I Knew he was a Prototype when his frigging hp was only 325 for a Sub-commander, and gives like 29 + red when dead. Extremely fragile to a Volly from a SM Dreadnaught,etc. Can't wait till he's accomplished

Well microed VA is not going down, esp not to a dreadnought, his HP is fine, giving him a cloak ability or w/e will just make him impossible to kill...

[Raffa]

Im sorry but im not gonna accept this excuse, you know this game very well, and actually you run all of this so you know the game better than everyone else, or atleast, in theory you do.

Ofc you can tell on paper it's gonna be OP. That's not the point.

Yes it is too strong but I actually agree with things being made too strong, rather than too weak, in testing. Because this means people will actually use the unit so we can see a lot of it and what is wrong. If it was too weak in testing nobody would use it and we're back to square one.

VA is probably deliberately on the OP-side just to make sure it gets tested extensively at least for a bit, so that when 2.2 real hits it can be as balanced as possible.

Yes it can be inconvenient when since everyone plays the beta and we're all the lab rats here but that's how the cookie crumbles and hopefully the end result will be worth it - considering all the betas and months of them we've had, I'm expecting 2.2 final to last us a loooong time

[HandSome SoddiNg]

[/quote][/quote]
Nothing is impossible to kill

[Kvek]

Nothing is impossible to kill

a sniper unit that doesn't have to setup, does av that snares and has autarch speed is hard to kill, add cloak and gl dealing with that.

[Torpid]

He does not have Autarch speed. Autarch has speed 8, he has speed 6.5, he has scout speed. He only has 40 LoS and 350 hp. You can just shoot him to death while he is retreating he has so little hp, or as he is the primary choice of AV for GK send a vehicle straight after him since he's so fragile he's gonna die so long as you don't charge the vehicle head-first into the GK army with no support. Or just use single model controlling abilities like full auto/warboss full auto (same name, I dunno?)/flesh hook/psychic lash/commissar execute/HOTW/mind war/ ranged attack on the WL, so he is very killable.

That said yeah, he is too strong atm a set-up time would fix that though.

[Dark Riku]

Autarch has speed 8

~~ Autarch has speed 7.5