Elite Apo vs Retail

[Ace of Swords]

Sources:
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/Apothecary

http://dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=el ... gelog_full

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=166


Retail

HP 550

Heal (Ability): Heals the targeted allied infantry unit for 110 health per model. For every 2 levels the Apothecary gains, the heal amount is increased by 20 health, and units with commander armor are healed for an additional 50 health. 25 second cooldown.

Healing Aura: Allied infantry units within a radius of 25 regenerate health 200% faster (triple rate).

Unique Globals

Larraman's Blessing: Immediately revive all allied heroes who are currently unconscious on the battlefield with 60% of their maximum health. Cooldown 50 seconds. Red cost 125

Angels of Death: Render all your infantry units invulnerable for 8 seconds. Does not affect allied units. Cooldown 180 seconds. Red cost 250

Elite

HP 600 (still the lowest healpool out of all heroes, unless you don't count the shield of the lord commissar, in that case they have the same hp)

Heal: Heals the targeted allied infantry unit for 110 health per model. For every 2 levels the Apothecary gains, the heal amount is increased by 30* health, and units with commander armor are healed for an additional 50 health. 30 second cooldown.

*Apothecary "Heal" scaling increased from 110/130/150/170/190 to 110/140/170/200/230 hp (at levels 1-2/3-4/5-6/7-8/9-10)

Healing Aura: Allied infantry units within a radius of 20 regenerate health 200% faster (triple rate)(changed maybe? I can't find anything about the actually hp regen).

Unique Globals

Larraman's Blessing: Immediately revive all allied heroes who are currently unconscious on their own base with 60% of their maximum health. Cooldown 50 seconds. Red cost 150

Angels of Death: Reduces damage taken by yours infatry units by 50% and grants them knockback resistance duration 15 seconds.Does not affect allied units. Cooldown 180 seconds. Red cost 200

Underlined parts are the major differences.



General Buffs:
“Purification Vials” throw can now be canceled
“Purification Vials” cooldown decreased from 40 to 30 seconds
“Purification Vials” energy cost decreased from 45 to 25
“Purification Vials” range increased from 20 to 24
“Purification Vials” duration increased from 10 to 15 seconds
“Purification Vials” cost decreased from 100/30 to 100/25

“Improved Medical Equipment” energy regeneration bonus increased from 0.1 to 0.15; also fixed a bug (equipping wargear granted 0.1 but unequipping removed 0.15, leaving a permanent energy regeneration penalty)

“Armor of Purity” now increases health regeneration by 0.1

“Combat Stimulant Equipment” health bonus increased from 100 to 125
“Combat Stimulants” damage bonus increased from 25% to 30%

“Armor of the Apothecarion” now grants +1 speed while not in combat

“Sanguine Chainsword” on-hit heal effect increased from 20 to 25
“Sanguine Chainsword” now equips a bolt pistol that heals for 10 health on hit
“Sanguine Chainsword” now increases melee charge range from 12 to 23

Nerfs:
“Heal” cooldown increased from 25 to 30 seconds

“Sanguine Chainsword” passive health regeneration removed
"Sanguine Chainsword" cost increased from 100/20 to 100/25

“Armor of the Apothecarion” 50% spontaneous revival chance removed

“Purification Rites” cost increased from 100/20 to 120/25

“Full Auto” tweaked to not chain-knockback as rapidly anymore

Full auto range was also lowered by 10, but I can't find that anywhere



Now that you have all the data necessary to form an opinion listen to mine:

The healt was originally buffed up to 625 (or 650 I don't remember exactly) and then brought down to 600 again, which as a HP for his 'new' supposed role isn't enough at all, he's not able to stand up in melee against anything past T1 and not even that outside of the sanguine chainsword.

What was buffed were his 'side' wargears, which, beside some needed fixes rather then buffs (like this “Purification Vials” throw can now be canceled) had already a place before that was quite marginal, and they keep retaining that place, I guess they just do the job better now, meanwhile, his main strenghts, and actually his main job of beign a support unit was nerfed quite hard, not only by the recent reduction of range of the aura but mainly by the CD increase, which lowers the overall effectivness of the apo as a combat/support unit aswell as it affects by alot the total healing done, not only, but thanks to that increase in the cooldown the Armor of purity is now a mandatory wargear, literally taking out of the game the stimpacks/armor of the apothecarion.

About the stims, a mere 5% damage buff from the original 25%(so it's now a total of 30%) and such small hp increase is never worth the so much needed cd reduction on heal, especially because when talking about army fights they DO NOT make a difference, sure in a 1v1 fight where you account stims the ASM will, let's say win a fight vs shees, but when both are supported, shees will come out ontop, but anyway, this was just a general example to show how little influence they have, meanwhile with the CD reduction, you might be able to even use it twice in an engagment, definitely changing the dinamics of the engagement aswell as your bleed.

The Armor of the Apothecarion at the moment doesn't make any sense, before it had a spot, synergizing very well with the improved medical equipment and the bolter, it's counter was focusing down the apo, which was simulationously countered by the fact that the apo had a chance of coming back to life, but now? now it has a +speed buff which doesn't synergize niether with the blobbing nature of this wargear nor with helping the apo when getting focused down, and in both cases it was too expensive, although before it was justified just because you had a quite high change of not having to spend 250 req or more to get your apo up.

About the globals there isn't much to discuss, they were straight nerfs, which could maybe be justified, especially in the case of angels of death, but there has not been any compesentation,especially for Larraman's blessing.
Conclusion
His main streghts were straight nerfed without anything in return, like I said before his side wargears were buffed, but aside a few deserved changes they weren't in need of anything else really, they were able to do their job before, they still do the same limited job and are not able to translate in the general purpose of the apo in the army, what does this mean? Well the apo can't really fight at the moment, and he can't heal as well as he did in retail, so what is he there for? He was already the worst hero in retail, but I currently belive that he was able to support the army way better before than he can do in elite, while still beign a pretty bad fighter, and there I don't have anything else to add.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

ty

[Indrid]

Armor of the Apothecarion is +1.5 since Beta 5.

[Dark Riku]

Full auto range was also lowered by 10, but I can't find that anywhere

Yes the range is decreased. But yet things like the WSE filament still has the same range and can troll a (sub-)commander forever because ... ?

“Sanguine Chainsword” now equips a bolt pistol that heals for 10 health on hit

This got removed because he didn't suck enough already. Together with cost increase.

About the stims, a mere 5% damage buff from the original 25%(so it's now a total of 30%)

It used to give an even higher damage increase but apparently apo isn't allowed to do any damage.

[Tex]

And yet he is still one of the most powerful 1v1 AND team game commanders in the game. That must say something about his total value uh?

Go deeper than the stats. That's how you find great defensive players in basketball as well.

It isn't all about the numbers.

[Caeltos]

It used to give an even higher damage increase but apparently apo isn't allowed to do any damage.

Ah yes, because you usually stimmed Apothecary with this upgrade.

This got removed because he didn't suck enough already. Together with cost increase.

Apothecary "Sanguine Chainsword" bolt pistol heal no longer triggers by shooting inanimate objects
The ranged-heal works perfectly fine. You just can't heal by shooting a flippin barrel. OH NO, THE HORROR.

[Sub_Zero]

I miss old good Larraman's Blessing. At the moment this ability is not as effective as it used to be (and is not inspirational anymore but that is a fan boy aspect). Most of the time I need my Apo to raise during the battle. And only in really rare situations he dies in a bad spot and I would prefer him to be near the base. What about splitting it into two abilities? The first one would allow to raise all allied heroes at the places where they died. And the second one would allow to bring all allied heroes to bases.

Angels of death seem fine for me. Still allow to win fights with no problems and enemy have a chance to win.

His 3rd armor nerfed and buffed. Increased speed helps greatly. However his ability to rise from the dead is gone. By the way, Plague Champion's 2nd armor was reworked a bit to make his after death effect better. It now presents as a charged by damage ability. What about to bring back a possibility to rise from the dead? Or at least rework it somehow.

What I want to do with Stimulants you have already seen or if you have not then go for it viewtopic.php?f=3&t=333

[sk4zi]

i actually loved the auto revive and the old laramans.

since this was changed, i didnt play apo any more and i dont know why i should -.-

[Caeltos]

Hero HP is quite a big factor, +50 does the following in-conjunction with levels;

600 1
630 2
661 3
694 4
729 5
765 6
804 7
844 8
886 9
930 10

Compared to retail (550 Hp)

550 1
578 2
606 3
637 4
669 5
702 6
737 7
774 8
813 9
853 10

This is not factoring the health bonus on the wargears. Each level increases the health of the hero by an additional 5%

[Dark Riku]

And yet he is still one of the most powerful 1v1 AND team game commanders in the game.

Based on what? °_O

My conclusion comes from my experience. Playing apo vs player X. Games last long and are very close. Playing against same player X with for example the LA. Baselock in 6mins. If you go look at my, although few games recorded atm, win/loss ratio you see that apo isn't great for the guy who's apo is his iconic commander.

Ah yes, because you usually stimmed Apothecary with this upgrade.

No smartypants. The units he's with because he's a support hero

[Ace of Swords]

And yet he is still one of the most powerful 1v1 AND team game commanders in the game. That must say something about his total value uh?

Go deeper than the stats. That's how you find great defensive players in basketball as well.

It isn't all about the numbers.

So far it's the worst, literally can't win a match vs even players with apo, while easily winning when using the CL, or LA or whatever else despite me not having the same knowledge of the race as I do with SM.

[Torpid]

Not to mention compositionally things have changed. Tacs of course have had their HP buffed, ASM are cheaper and come out fast, the flamethrower is a very potent weapon choice in t1 now. Walkers serve a greater role in the current meta, melta bombs were reduced in price, etc etc.

All in all the apo just doesn't perform as poorly as he did in retail in elite. His versatility with regards to wargears is much higher and larraman's is arguably a more useful global. Granted holistically AOD got nerfed, but it is still better in some circumstances as was once noted by Asmondeus. But most importantly his early pressure and bleed-resistance have only been amplified by the changes to the early SM meta.

I still question the price increase to 25 power on sanguine, but other than that I think the changes have been quite good for apo, and I certainly wouldn't revert him to his state in retail in the current elite meta.

[Sub_Zero]

larraman's is arguably a more useful global.

How? Apo died fighting and you use the ability. Your Apo with your forces again. That is the performance of the ability in retail. And how it performs now? Apo died fighting and you use the ability. Your Apo is on your base, your forces have no support.

[Ace of Swords]

Tacs of course have had their HP buffed

They had originally this hp some patches before in retail. then it got nerfed down for some unknown reasons, and reverted back in elite.

His versatility with regards to wargears is much higher and larraman's is arguably

I already explained why this isn't true.

and larraman's is arguably a more useful global.

Are you kidding me now?

to the early SM meta.

? 50 less req on asm? Since the flamer change happened for everyone.

Walkers serve a greater role in the current meta, melta bombs were reduced in price, etc etc.

And the libby is completely useless, meaning that his synergy with setup teams is dead, the razorback is barely a usable unit because the meta of other races changed,t3 is the worst out of all races while it was supposed to be the best etc etc.

[Torpid]

And yet he is still one of the most powerful 1v1 AND team game commanders in the game. That must say something about his total value uh?

Go deeper than the stats. That's how you find great defensive players in basketball as well.

It isn't all about the numbers.

So far it's the worst, literally can't win a match vs even players with apo, while easily winning when using the CL, or LA or whatever else despite me not having the same knowledge of the race as I do with SM.

The CL and nids in general are not OP because of their simplicity to use. Are you suggesting that at the highest stratums of play that eldar and IG are woefully inferior to chaos and nids purely on the basis that they are harder to play - not on the basis that the MU for whatever reason is unfavourable for them. Maybe you ought to invest more time into playing the Apo, or maybe we should conclude that nids and heroes like the CL are OP, but we cannot do that just because it is easier to win with them.

I think I elaborated my point poorly there, but what I'm trying to say is that just because after X hours you are better with hero A than you are with hero B, doesn't mean hero A is superior. You can only make that claim when you have maximised the potential of the hero. In order to do that you would have to arrogantly proclaim a perfect understanding of an ever changing meta (thanks to this very mod) and an impeccable level of both micro and macro with that hero.

Oh and with regards to Larraman's being seen as buff I thought it cost more than 125 red, you're right it is a nerf.

The other thing is that I would say it's a colossal exaggeration to suggest that the librarian is useless at the moment, that just simply isn't true.

[Bahamut]

You can only make that claim when you have maximised the potential of the hero. In order to do that you would have to arrogantly proclaim a perfect understanding of an ever changing meta (thanks to this very mod) and an impeccable level of both micro and macro with that hero.

problem right there is that rikku has a way better understanding for SM meta than you do, tho if only rikku's opinion mattered to account for SM then they would be flying giant inmortal monsters of perpetual doom that would move at 10 speed each, don't you think?. Same goes for Tex with chaos/orks, or asmon with eldar, or youself with IG.

The only real way to messure the balance of a unit is to messure its performance in a macro level in different skill tiers and game mode. But for that Lulgrim and Caeltos need data they can't collect. Thus they have to rely on trusted sources even tho those sources are biased and not impartial

[Caeltos]

My biggest source of general meta understanding is Noisy & Tex. At least they dare to defy things of the general meta and break the mold.

I'm not saying they're the only ones, but they can be pretty vocal and quite understandable to talk to. They're very down-to earth, and I like that.

They don't hyperbole and blow things out of porportion and if they meet an obstacle, they'll try to find a way to make things work before jumping the bandwagon of tears.

[Ace of Swords]

You can only make that claim when you have maximised the potential of the hero. In order to do that you would have to arrogantly proclaim a perfect understanding of an ever changing meta (thanks to this very mod) and an impeccable level of both micro and macro with that hero.

I always talk on the theorical and perfect level, it's not a matter of beign able to pull it off or no, if you know the numbers you know how things will go when the perfect conditions are met, and as of now, space marines havo no way to win anything at the theorical level, they lose everywhere, literally, in game, the only way to win is when you opponent makes mistakes, and obviously this happens alot because nobody is perfect but yet, there are some situations that are simply impossible to deal with on the pratical level aswell.

[Dark Riku]

tho if only rikku's opinion mattered to account for SM then they would be flying giant inmortal monsters of perpetual doom that would move at 10 speed each, don't you think?.

That's just a big fucking insult. For example: I was (one) the first to mention to Caeltos that I think moving tacs while upgrading to sterns was way too good. Or will say when stuff is OP like the suggestion of giving multi-melta dread a charge or extra speed in another topic.

They don't hyperbole and blow things out of porportion and if they meet an obstacle, they'll try to find a way to make things work before jumping the bandwagon of tears.

Just to touch a bit on this topic. I don't know what your opinion is but I think I tried more than enough things with the Apothecary (and other races/heroes) to know what works and what doesn't.

[Bahamut]

It's just an example Rikku, i love you

If it was for Torpid this game would be so badly balanced not even torpid would wanna play it

[Torpid]

Are you that purely on my previous post in this thread? If that's the case then I think you clearly misunderstand what I meant. If not then I fail to see what your problem is, I make very few 'positive' (as in do this, instead of don't do this) suggestions because to make a positive suggestion requires much more in depth knowledge of whatever scenario you are suggesting be changed than it takes to simply show that a change wouldn't be good which would be a 'negative' suggestion.

[Tex]

I smell a project apo coming soon... hehehe

[Bahamut]

As far i as i know, the general consensus was that Apo was the very weakest hero in the game to the point that it was unplayable, isn't this correct?. Then now in elite it seems he traded his global abilities for a mere 50-80 hp increase, so it does seem quite nerfed from retail.

[Torpid]

The problem wasn't the apothecary in retail but space marines in general. SM weren't viable. Then having their eco the way it was just made the apo worse. All in all I think an apo project would be VERY useful Tex...

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

And this is why i thi.k a tier 3 option of terminator armor would fit his role way better then crappy armor of the apothecarion. It was only ever bought for.chance.of revive which is now gone

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

And another thing. This isnt sometging to jump the gun on we need to nake a pool on match ups and find exactly what the issue is. Because i find hes amazing vs eldar in general but completely horrendous vs tyranid

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Hes like a preasure cooker that builds up heat slowly to start going. But sometimes he just nvr catches his gear

[Bahamut]

The problem wasn't the apothecary in retail but space marines in general. SM weren't viable. Then having their eco the way it was just made the apo worse. All in all I think an apo project would be VERY useful Tex...

Sure, this is true. But even then, the apo was considered the weakest of the 3 SM heroes. I started paying dow2 in mid 2012 and i think half of my play hours have been spent in watching replays rather than actually playing, and i can't remember 1 replay of rikku playing apo in retail (3.19.1). I've seen replays of rikku playing apo that are much older than that, things like 3.17 or so

Also, i think it was 3.19 when Relic butchered apo and did some ninja nerfs like lowering tac hp to 330 per model. And it was in that patch that apo got the title of worst hero of the worst 1v1 race in game

[Tex]

Project balance SM chapter has been started. 5-0 with apo and 1-0 with FC so far. What are the worst matchups for him though? I know that LA and Chaos lord are absolutely brutal. What are the other ones?

So far I totally agree with people that the sanguine chainsword should not cost 25 power. I have used it in every game and it has felt underwhelming at 25 power every time I used it.

[crazyman64335]

Project balance SM chapter has been started. 5-0 with apo and 1-0 with FC so far. What are the worst matchups for him though? I know that LA and Chaos lord are absolutely brutal. What are the other ones?

So far I totally agree with people that the sanguine chainsword should not cost 25 power. I have used it in every game and it has felt underwhelming at 25 power every time I used it.

5-0? Who have you played?