Banshees-Aspect of the Ultimate

[Faultron]

Heloo


I will speak about Banshees and their upgrades and their game impact.
I was very happy when first installed Elite mod and noticed the changes to banshees.The jumping is cute and useful.
It is very hard to balance/define banshees it is a key unit for eldar.
(well i think, in elite red banshee in this form is not balanced inhouse )
It is one of the first upgrades that eldar buy in tier 1(banshees aspect) if not the first.and u have to decide immedietly what path you choose.
Most of the time we plan to buy 1 banshees and that gonna be red one.why?
Aspect of Fleetness(blue) or Aspect of Strength(red)? hmm...hard to decide...oh wait no it is not!
i see everybody use the , red path' most of the time, me either.

and the reason is: it is better and safer, it is ultimate and universal.
other then the rock jumping, red paths grant the same unit.You can still wipe squads on retreat, very good in melee(You go red path and 5 banshees still have power melee damage+suppression) etc. the jump bonus is not a big factor in the blue path(it is situational), the FoF and Warshout is and the high power damage of course.
there is no risk, downside going for red path.they can deal with everything.
Makes enemies cry, red banshee kill infantry, vehicle even on retreat.
this is too much eldar units are not universal, but banshee...doenst make any sense.

blue path is risky, lacking heavy melee in tier 2 is big deal.

With red banshees we can do the same thing as blue banshees,(see above)
there is no real path to choose from, we use the same path/tactic as we used to in Retail.We can support Red banshees more effective then Blue ones, since they got mixed damage.
but banshees was always this why change this?
cos elite mod changed eldar army a lot from retail, i think it is time to rework the banshees


My suggestion(original):

Blue path: no need any change here atm

Red path:
-FoF grants only +1 or 0,5 speedboost insteasd of 3
-Warshout gives defense bonus(or damage bonus) vs vehicles and commanders instead of the default warshout suppression.or something else but not the default suppression.

or

maybe some kind of slow to vehicles only, or after each hit banshee get speed boost vs vehicles only
-or just a cost increase if u dont like drastic changes...:+15 req and +5-10 power
-decreased powermelee dps



my goal with changes are(original):
-prevent retreat Squad wipes with red banshee on FoF+weaker force vs infantry
but still relevant vs vehicles
-or just dps tweak as easy solution
so you actually choose the paths:)
-more blue banshees ingame lol
-so basicly stopping the absurd domination for 1 upgrade of this unit

New suggestion, goal
-after chatting with ppl i changed my opinion a bit, but i still think the 2 banshee paths should be more diverse.Her universal dps is very high in T2 but blue sheez have the upperhand with the passive in T1, and universal unit for eldar is abnormal anyway.

-making red sheez to have normal melee dps(inceased base dps a bit 1-2 or more depends on hop passive, see later)
no other change, (maybe give the hop passive to reed sheez as well)
-this will make red sheez more viable/situational and non-uninversal unit and still fill her role in vs Eldar, Ork, IG as other players stated where she should been used primarily, if i follow their mindset
-i think this change will be favored and balanced for all 3 race and makes the upgrade more diverse as should be(choosing paths).
2013 dec.


choose ur path and u will be honored!

Updated

[SirSid]

i always get " blue " sheenz.

Don't neglect the fact u have the uperhand on pathing for the rest of the game .. with a unit that can whipe in retreat.

I don't follow your logic whare u have to get "red" sheenz to stay competitive in t2 ?

[Faultron]

yes blue sheez can wipe squads, but guess what red can even wipe vehicles, not just infantry

right now you can easily defeat/finish off a lightvehicle/heaviervehicle with red banshee and brightlance (+ wse)

there is a map or part of the maps where u dont have any advantage being slippery with jumps.
there is no downside/risk getting Aspect of Strength it doesnt work different, have the same use/purpose+counters vehicle


this is why i go for red sheez:)

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Well this can factor into 2x Shees build with , One Fleetness/Other Strength. Having both paths this way

Still can Marauded through High infantries races without lacking killing potential @_@. The Flanking option of Fleetness is really gud if you can Micro em around the Terrain or leap over Obstacles for flanking tactics. Even u have Fleetness Shees,still can accommodate em with FD/Brightlance/WL,etc. Derpdar has no shortage of AV =

[David-CZ]

Imo it really depends on the way you want to play your army. If I know that my primary source of AV will be multiple light AV units like Shees and Spiders and there is no threat of multiple enemy vehicles then strength aspect it is. But If I plan on having a hard AV or know that there will be a lot of vehicles (e.g. TM or IG match-ups) the fleetness can be better.

I don't really understand why people constantly complain about Shees. Yes, they have high DPS and power melee but they fall like flies not to mention constantly loosing their exarch like any other Eldar unit. Their general squishiness is also the reason why in many cases multiple Avanger squads are preferred over them. I think they're fine the way they are.

[Ace of Swords]

fleetness vs chaos,sm,gk,nids
strenght vs ig,orks,eldar

Not really that hard of a choice.

[Sub_Zero]

I always go for the red upgrade. Makes your squad more versatile.
50 power melee dps or 50 heavy melee dps? No doubts, 50 heavy melee dps.

[Lesten]

What Ace said.

fleetness vs chaos,sm,gk,nids
strenght vs ig,orks,eldar

I usually prefer Aspect of Fleetness – jumping over terrain is great for getting in to and out of combat (except when they jump back and forth over the same spot three times like idiots). I don't know the exact values but I guess is that the Mirrorsword Exarch has better dps vs infantry?

Granted, I'm often ill equipped to counter early vehicles, but Eldar has plenty of decent AV options so it's usually not a problem for long.

[Codex]

50 power melee dps or 50 heavy melee dps? No doubts, 50 heavy melee dps.

I'm pretty sure exarch mirror blades do higher base dps than exarch executioner, but I don't know the numbers off the top of my head.

[Faultron]

50 power melee dps or 50 heavy melee dps? No doubts, 50 heavy melee dps.

I'm pretty sure exarch mirror blades do higher base dps than exarch executioner, but I don't know the numbers off the top of my head.

yes it does:) 2 more dps:)

[Faultron]

fleetness vs chaos,sm,gk,nids
strenght vs ig,orks,eldar

Not really that hard of a choice.

this is just simply wrong

[Kvek]

fleetness vs chaos,sm,gk,nids
strenght vs ig,orks,eldar

Not really that hard of a choice.

this is just simply wrong

tell us why?

[Forestradio]

fleetness vs chaos,sm,gk,nids
strenght vs ig,orks,eldar

Not really that hard of a choice.

this is just simply wrong

I see plenty of aspect of fleetness shees around both in Indrid's casts and in my own personal experience.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it isn't good.

[Faultron]

fleetness vs chaos,sm,gk,nids
strenght vs ig,orks,eldar

Not really that hard of a choice.

this is just simply wrong

I see plenty of aspect of fleetness shees around both in Indrid's casts and in my own personal experience.

Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it isn't good.

yes, the topic is not about the aspect of fleetness being bad, and about indrid casts or any other replay: go watch 1v1 where the guy buy only 1 banshee

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the base dps is very similar with the two weapons but it changes depending on the target due to the damage types. i see it as a trade off between heavy melee and the hop though.

[Faultron]

the base dps is very similar with the two weapons but it changes depending on the target due to the damage types. i see it as a trade off between heavy melee and the hop though.

it is not a balanced tradeoff since only the exarch weapon damage type changes, you still have 134,6 power melee dps and the melee heavy (full damage to all infantry and commander+AV) you have enough damage vs HI SHI melee infantry.
+with the 2 ability they can do the same.
their combat effectiveness doesnt change vs infantry in overall.This is not fair, and for your opponent too.And if you give any kind of support for Red banshees, the eldar army gain more benefits from it, then Blue one, it is simply more effective.

In Retail Eldar have different T2, and T1 too, this kind of Red banshee was needed there, but not in Elite.

[xerrol nanoha]

the base dps is very similar with the two weapons but it changes depending on the target due to the damage types. i see it as a trade off between heavy melee and the hop though.

it is not a balanced tradeoff since only the exarch weapon damage type changes, you still have 134,6 power melee dps and the melee heavy (full damage to all infantry and commander+AV) you have enough damage vs HI SHI melee infantry.
+with the 2 ability they can do the same.
their combat effectiveness doesnt change vs infantry in overall.This is not fair, and for your opponent too.And if you give any kind of support for Red banshees, the eldar army gain more benefits from it, then Blue one, it is simply more effective.

In Retail Eldar have different T2, and T1 too, this kind of Red banshee was needed there, but not in Elite.

I want to make clear the distinctions between heavy melee and power melee damage.

Heavy melee damage deals 50% damage to vehicles and full damage to all infantry.

Power melee damage deals 15% damage to vehicles and 130% damage to HI/SHI
aspect of fleetness provides a mobility bonus that is exclusive.

In this sense, Strength banshees are more versatile with AV damage for their exarch, however Fleetness banshees are more specialized in anti-infantry with their higher mobility.

Now that Eldar has more AV options available in tier 2, Strength banshees are no longer needed for the 50% damage vs vehicles, to that end, Fleetness banshees are often a newer and more powerful option because of mobility advantages and bonuses against HI/SHI (which are more common than vehicles).

To that end, I think that nerfing Strength banshees so that you feel they are equivalent to Fleetness banshees, would be a mistake, as Fleetness banshees are already strong enough to be equally desirable.

[Faultron]

Why you have to make clear for the damagetypes?
you even agree that Strength banshees are more versatile...
and you cant make differences by numbers here, cos both banshees do almost the exact same damage to HI and SHI...and have the same vs commander or other infantry.Only the leader has different weapon, the rest 5 has the same.

Red banshee is way less risky path, and you can still do the same role vs infantry.
the hop doesnt do anything on plain terrain or in combat.
In tier 1 when you buy the upgrade you cant see what will happen when you enter T2.
and if you are behind or even, Red banshee is big thing to have vs any race.With Blue basnhees you need a lead or go even, you cant be behind, you gonna have much harder time.

Not to mention the 2 ability and the overall usage/gimmicks.
From the 2 path only the blue one is specalized indeed, not the red one, making this upgrade better and less risky, universal.This is why i suggested to change red path being specalized also.

[xerrol nanoha]

I guess I don't understand your point.

There are people who like strength banshees because of their versatility, and there are people who see that the versatility of strength banshees is unneeded to they choose to use fleetness banshees instead.

I myself prefer fleetness banshees because that focus on anti-infantry power and the advantages of cover mobility are more desirable to me than the higher vehicle damage.

From what I understand, I would read your suggestions to strength banshees as being an overall nerf to that aspect, by removing the versatility of strength banshees that have been since retail. You should consider Fleetness banshees as not the standard, but as something new and as an additional option.

Although you think them unequal in value, I would insist that they are equal and that power of Strength banshees is in versatility itself. Removing that would make Strength banshees much less desirable for most players.

[Vapor]

I guess I don't understand your point.

There are people who like strength banshees because of their versatility, and there are people who see that the versatility of strength banshees is unneeded to they choose to use fleetness banshees instead.

I myself prefer fleetness banshees because that focus on anti-infantry power and the advantages of cover mobility are more desirable to me than the higher vehicle damage.

From what I understand, I would read your suggestions to strength banshees as being an overall nerf to that aspect, by removing the versatility of strength banshees that have been since retail. You should consider Fleetness banshees as not the standard, but as something new and as an additional option.

Although you think them unequal in value, I would insist that they are equal and that power of Strength banshees is in versatility itself. Removing that would make Strength banshees much less desirable for most players.

+1

[Torpid]

@Faultron

Why on earth are you saying that specialisation is a reason to not get something, isn't that absurd? You would not purchase numerous missle tac squads just to defeat a walker when you could simply get a lascannon and there was no other incentive to not get one JUST because you want 'versatility'.

[Maestro Cretella]

Why you have to make clear for the damagetypes?
you even agree that Strength banshees are more versatile...
and you cant make differences by numbers here, cos both banshees do almost the exact same damage to HI and SHI...and have the same vs commander or other infantry.Only the leader has different weapon, the rest 5 has the same.

Red banshee is way less risky path, and you can still do the same role vs infantry.
the hop doesnt do anything on plain terrain or in combat.
In tier 1 when you buy the upgrade you cant see what will happen when you enter T2.
and if you are behind or even, Red banshee is big thing to have vs any race.With Blue basnhees you need a lead or go even, you cant be behind, you gonna have much harder time.

Not to mention the 2 ability and the overall usage/gimmicks.
From the 2 path only the blue one is specalized indeed, not the red one, making this upgrade better and less risky, universal.This is why i suggested to change red path being specalized also.

He has to make the damage types clear because it's not clear that you understand them.

There is a difference in numbers here, and we're going to acknowledge it, because your argument is based on a difference in numbers in one part, but you're ignoring or discounting a difference in numbers in another part for your own convenience.

Fleetness Banshee damage vs HI/SHI: ~246 dps
Strength Banshee damage vs HI/SHI: ~227 dps

Fleetness Banshee damage vs. vehicles: ~28 dps
Strength Banshee damage vs. vehicles: ~46 dps

Fleetness Banshees are better than Strength Banshees against HI and SHI. You keep trying to downplay this and you need to stop. Even if it's a relatively slight increase, 246 dps is a retarded figure.

Strength Banshees are better than Fleetness Banshees vs vehicles...but Fleetness Banshees can still damage and threaten vehicles when combined with a haywire. Yes, this does make Strength Banshees more versatile, but you're exaggerating when you say that going for Fleetness will screw you because you need the heavy melee. You don't. It's just kind of nice to have.

Banshees are always going to be extremely powerful against HI and SHI, while being a soft vehicle counter at best, regardless of what aspect you get.

[Faultron]

This topic is not about likes and dislikes, or how u prefer to play the unit, it is design/balance topic.

Yes i had exactly the same opinion for about sheez as you 3 months ago, when i installed the mod.i was playing blue sheez mostly.then i watched high lvl 1v1 replays where i saw 90% the time red basnhee in use.i was wondering, and i started to use more red sheez and now i use only red ones:D (99%).And I understand and feel why.

blue banshee is a good designed and balanced unit in elite, it is specalized unit killing infantry.
Red bashee is the exact same as was in Retail yes and this is the problem here.Eldar meta in retail has strong synergy with banshee she is universal and very strong cos of lacking other units.
Elite changed the meta, but no changes for red banshees.
you cant argue with this
Red sheez doesnt lack in melee the damage difference is a joke vs HI and SHI, they are same as good as blue ones and u will see why.Same specials(maybe blue has more?) and abilities.
i never said remove red banshee upgrade, i was suggesting more diverse/balanced/specalized upgrade, cos of meta changing.

and now some precise numbers cos u like it.(if some numbers not right it is cos of lack elite data)

Red sheez vs SHI 226,41 vs AV 45,905 DPS
blue Sheez vs SHI 244,972 vs AV 28,266 DPS

+for blues vs SHI 18,562
+for reds vs AV 17,639

46 AVdps is very good vs vehicles in T2 (especially with low hp pool), brightlance has 45 just to compare. so 46 dps is big factor.Keep in mind T2 most Vehicles low hp pool, HI(depends) and SHI has high hp pool.
Not sure if u realized AV difference is 17 dps more for red and SHI 18 dps more for blue, and compare this what is their target HP, do u see the problem?17 AVdps bonus has way better value and effect then +18 SHI dps.In combat red doesnt lack damage or combat effectiveness they have the damage and the same abilities/specials.there is no path to choose from,it is clearly not 2 different path of unit playstyle/role/design.There is one infantry specalized and one universal who kills infantry the same way(and almost same dps) and effectiveness+good dps vs vehicles with chase potential(both).Weird paths, i would like to see 2 specalized/different unit when i choose, and not 2 same but 1 op xD.And again, there is very low/no risk going Red Sheez vs any race (maybe only vs tyranids but not rly), you can do comebacks easier and put more pressure to your opponent with them.

Even more numbers
T2 AV for eldar just to compare to red sheez(DPS)
brightlance 45
Falcon venom only 23,06
WLord blance 20 melee 42,5
upgraded fire dragon 63
wraith guard 61,7175
red sheez 45,905 the soft counter:)

+Eldar has fragile units and way more non-vehicle snares/cc then vehicle snares, making any source of AV dps even more important/valuable

sry but i am limited in english and patience, ppl too hard

[Faultron]

@Faultron

Why on earth are you saying that specialisation is a reason to not get something, isn't that absurd? You would not purchase numerous missle tac squads just to defeat a walker when you could simply get a lascannon and there was no other incentive to not get one JUST because you want 'versatility'.

i dont have problem with specialization in general, my problem is the bad designed specialization for the basnheez, and SM not Eldar.your example was very bad since you cant do much with missile tacs or lascannon to infantry, only vs vehicles in real.

[Torpid]

No but tac's bolters and melee does sufficient damage to infantry in comparison to the lascannon devs who just die vs any infantry. That was my point...

[David-CZ]

I still somehow don't get what you mean Faultron. Or rather what you want. Is it that you'd like to see the aspect of strength giving more AV and less AI capabilities?

[Dark Riku]

@ David-CZ
I think he wants a nerf to the "red shees".

@Faultron (if the above statement is true)
You can't ignore the hop "blue shees" get. It is very useful for offense and defense.

i see it as a trade off between heavy melee and the hop though.

The "Blue shees" still do more damage to infantry which you can't deny. Together with their hop this can sometimes mean the death of an infantry unit where the "red shees" would have failed to kill them. Both upgrades are equally desirable imo.

[Faultron]

well in my opinion red sheez deserves at least dps changes (not the exarch), less power melee: -18,562 power melee for example, or change dmg type to normal and tweak up a bit the damage:) for easy change.

[Forestradio]

well in my opinion red sheez deserves at least dps changes (not the exarch), less power melee: -18,562 power melee for example, or change dmg type to normal and tweak up a bit the damage:)

that seems a pretty hard nerf to aspect of strength shees.

Because power melee in T1 does full damage to commander armor: http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/damaget ... eapons_pvp

Normal melee doesn't: http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/damaget ... =melee_pvp

So why would anyone want strength shees (who would lose their power melee) when there is a chaos lord or hive tyrant or force commander charging around?

As for increasing their dps, no way. Banshees are already one of best retreat killers in the game, they don't need more dps.

[Ace of Swords]

Strenght shees are still primaly an anti infantry unit not an AV one, they are good for follow up after the spiders nades vs a transport or to chase down an almost dead walker, they really can't challenge any vehicle in 1v1, so yes they are more versatile but already worse at dealing with nids/sm/chaos/gk than aspect of fleetness, but are fine and have their uses, the rest depends on your playstyle.