My main issues with the GK

[Lag]

There are several things which really get on my nerves with the GK design and balance-wise so I thought I would share, to whatever end.


Design wise:
1. Instant teleport of the Interceptors and the mega low-cooldown they have.
There is a good reason why every T1 jump squad has a delay time before they reach their jump destination. The kill-on-retreat potential is insanely high, especially when you take into consideration how much damage they have, how fast they are and that they even have a small charge. Even Termis who have instant teleport (and are a T3 unit mind you) are so slow, that even their charge most often doesn't really enable them to do so much damage on retreat (and puts them in a very iffy situation as they don't have retreat like Interceptors do). What I really don't understand is why their cooldown is so low? They can jump two times in one fight and, providing one of the "here's some mana" abilities have been used - can easily jump the third time to pick off some retreating squads.

2. Overlapping purposes.
Why give four different units flamers? Why remove the need to counter stuff with your build order by saying "ah, this unit can be a specialized melee, but can also be anti blob. Hey this unit can also be that. Hey, this one as well". Why do Strike Squads have a flamer, or Interceptors for that matter, if you already have purgation squads?
For now there are four squads who can make Psycannons and five squads who can make flamers, three of which can teleport.

3. Termis spam.
I'd say there is a pretty good reason that the cooldown on Termi globals for SM and CSM is as high as it is. Once two squads of Termis hit the field (which is quite common in 2v2s, and especially 3v3s), along with the BC and Libby support abilities, it becomes pretty ridiculously hard to do any real damage. At least limiting them to one Termi and one Pala squad alive at the time would be a start.

4. Click-suppression on Purgation Squads.
I understand how necessary it is to have some sort of suppression to deal with Banshees and similar shit, but this is just too easy. Could be because of the insane Flamer damage, but this is just bonkers. Stops armies in t1. Maybe make it an upgrade?

6. Rhino damage resistance.
Why does probably the beefiest race which bleeds the least need it's transport (which nicely compliments their relative lack of mobility) to give off additional defensive bonuses to units around it. Should they never bleed?



Balance wise:
1. Lack of bleed on the Storms
The only unit which is supposed actually bleed the GK bleeds significantly less than it should, especially with Sarge upgrade. If you look at two other races who are designed with Super-Humies in mind who don't lose models, you have Heretics who are melee and have to be in the front rows most of the time, and you have Scouts who have a measly range on their weapons (except when they go snipers and that is both costly and introduces a power bleed if you get a model). Storms have significant range which keeps them out of harms way, have a lot of models which gives them better staying power then scouts and can receive defensive bonuses and additional speed through We Are The Hammer, not to mention that they suffer from the same flaw in design as Shootas, as they make most of the cloaked stuff obsolete. Insane t1 units, even after the nerfs.

2. Speed of Storm nades.
I went on and on about this on another topic, not sure if it's necessary to repeat everything here. There is even a recent topic on this subject.

3. Flamer Damage.
It is ridiculous. No other flamers melt stuff like the GK ones. I just played a game the other day when a FC Termi with flamer teleported in and used his ability on my IG army. That's pretty retarded stuff, and has been for a while (one click ability which costs no red and forces an entire army to retreat is always retarded), but at least it is an ability which has a cooldown and can't be spammed. Then in the same game a squad of Paladins with flamers teleports into my army and causes the same effect as the FC ability - only this is not some special omg ability. This is their natural DPS. These were lvl4 GM as well mind you. Retreated instantly and barely saved some of my stuff. Why must Pala flames annihilate entire armies in two seconds, while SM flamers do normal flamer damage is beyond me.


Yep, that's it.

[Orkfaeller]

Termis spam.
I'd say there is a pretty good reason that the cooldown on Termi globals for SM and CSM is as high as it is. Once two squads of Termis hit the field (which is quite common in 2v2s, and especially 3v3s), along with the BC and Libby support abilities, it becomes pretty ridiculously hard to do any real damage. At least limiting them to one Termi and one Pala squad alive at the time would be a start.

Thats something I'm really split about.

On the one hand, I expect and want Grey Knights to be a bit more Terminator heavy than other Space Marine forces.

I mean, GK are an army that was originally ( TT / fluff ) ALL Terminator.

But on the other hand late game GKs just feel incredicle one dimensional.
Yesterday I produced 5 Terminator Squads in a single game, three of wich were Paladins.
My colleague produced another three.

And it has not been the first time.
To many games I feel I can almost skip T2, lose alot of map controll rush to T3, and from there steam role my oponent with Termis unless he manages to drown me in tanks, and even then it can be enough if I just slaughter his supporting infantry.

[Indrid]

1. Instant teleport of the Interceptors and the mega low-cooldown they have.

Interceptors are really powerful unit atm. They are expensive though and getting all their upgrades can be a big sink, they also give tons of XP etc and pretty much anything that deals with ASM can deal with them. Losing fully upgraded Inteceptors is a massive blow.

They are very good at getting retreat kills, but GK don't have any grenades/IEDs/spore mines to potentially wipe squads on retreat.

I think Canticle of Absolution is too cheap for what it does, I very rarely look past it when I play BC. +200 HP +En + a great ability for 100/25 is amazing value, especially with Interceptors ofc. Price of it could be looked at I think.

2. Overlapping purposes.

Purgation Flamers are obvious. Strike Squad incinerator gives you another option to deal with T1 blobs aside from ST nades, and to bash power. You might not always want Purgation.

Interceptor incinerator is a weird one, and I think it's there mainly to help GK vs turret/beacon/other defenses play. You don't see it that often but I remember seeing Tyger use it to very good effect.

3. Termis spam.

Most factions can spam something annoying for team games. Nobs, Fire Prisms, Mantis, etc. Don't think you can really have a legitimate complaint with that kind of thing. They are both largely melee Termie variants and can be demolished by ranged blobs with their lack of retreat etc. Can be annoying to fight against, but a lot of stuff is. Only thing that seems a bit wonky to me is their reinforcement costs. It's auto-calculated by the system iirc but it just seems very low.

4. Click-suppression on Purgation Squads.

Purg's current suppression performance is not OP. They severely lack the range of set-up teams and can't protect themselves from jump units at all. Anything that counters set-ups works against them, and more besides given their range. You can run in something to melee if you just split, and sometimes you don't even need to do that if the Purg don't start firing fast enough.

6. Rhino damage resistance.

I assume you mean the smoke? Rhino is a weird one for me as I've never really got along with the concept (a unit without a weapon). I don't think GK mobility is that terrible in T1 for me to ever want to get one of these in team games, and I've not seen anyone use them in Beta 7-8 iirc. I think costs should be adjusted and it should get a reinforcement mechanic, then I might use it. Vindicare > the lascannon now so I never give it a second look.

But getting back to your point, I don't see the smoke as a problem. All the transports have a unique "thing" kind of, and the lack of reinforce is a pretty big drawback compared to the others.

Your balance concerns are valid points to an extent, but I'd like to see more 1v1s with GK. I can say that from playing them semi-regularly in 3v3s since Beta 7 that I've not felt they are mental or anything. I had good games, I had bad games. ST are very nice at the moment but I felt they died as easily as I'd expect them too. Their nades are fast to help GK against melee blobs (I think - not sure if Caeltos has ever confirmed this general belief). Perhaps this can be toned down now that Purg have been buffed a couple of times and have a new ability. Paladin/Termie flamers are strong yes but come on it's a short range weapon on a Termie variant. Run away. They also do DoT iirc so are particularly potent. Perhaps costings of those upgrades could be looked at, but apparently the Psycannon performs strangely or something and does very little damage.

I guess you're coming from an IG perspective, and there have been rumblings that GK are a particularly tough match-up for them atm.

[Lag]

1. Instant teleport of the Interceptors and the mega low-cooldown they have.

Interceptors are really powerful unit atm. They are expensive though and getting all their upgrades can be a big sink, they also give tons of XP etc and pretty much anything that deals with ASM can deal with them. Losing fully upgraded Inteceptors is a massive blow.

They are very good at getting retreat kills, but GK don't have any grenades/IEDs/spore mines to potentially wipe squads on retreat.

I think Canticle of Absolution is too cheap for what it does, I very rarely look past it when I play BC. +200 HP +En + a great ability for 100/25 is amazing value, especially with Interceptors ofc. Price of it could be looked at I think.

Losing ASM is a massive blow as well, and so is losing Raptors. They also give loads of XP when you kill them. Yet they require much more skill and calculation to engage with smartly and to wipe squads.

IG don't have stuff to kill on retreat either before t2, and they bleed helluva lot more. I'm not saying Interceptors shouldn't be able to kill anything. I'm just saying it shouldn't be so easy as 1-click.

Purgation Flamers are obvious. Strike Squad incinerator gives you another option to deal with T1 blobs aside from ST nades, and to bash power. You might not always want Purgation.

Interceptor incinerator is a weird one, and I think it's there mainly to help GK vs turret/beacon/other defenses play. You don't see it that often but I remember seeing Tyger use it to very good effect.

Then why not give Scouts a flamer, Tacs Nades, IG storms a spotter model etc? I mean all of those things can be used, and their potential practice is as obvious as what you just demonstrated, but that doesn't mean it is good design. All the races have a t2 easy-solution to dealing with turrets, yet they have to struggle with their flamers and whatnot in t1. Why give the GK an option to piss all over stuff in t1? Does "you might not want Purgation" apply to CSM as well? "I might not want Noise Marines to deal with blobs so I will..." make more CSM? They already have Nades which are fast and deadly up on a squad which is faster and harder to kill then Tics. What other race has 4 very effective things to deal with blobs in t1? And by "deal" I don't mean "stop them" but completely rape and bleed them?

3. Termis spam.

Most factions can spam something annoying for team games. Nobs, Fire Prisms, Mantis, etc. Don't think you can really have a legitimate complaint with that kind of thing. They are both largely melee Termie variants and can be demolished by ranged blobs with their lack of retreat etc. Can be annoying to fight against, but a lot of stuff is. Only thing that seems a bit wonky to me is their reinforcement costs. It's auto-calculated by the system iirc but it just seems very low.

I agree on the spam notion, but this is a bit different. At least it feels different (just like Lictor spam felt different). Obviously, reading Orkafaeller's post, I'm not alone with this feeling.

4. Click-suppression on Purgation Squads.

Purg's current suppression performance is not OP. They severely lack the range of set-up teams and can't protect themselves from jump units at all. Anything that counters set-ups works against them, and more besides given their range. You can run in something to melee if you just split, and sometimes you don't even need to do that if the Purg don't start firing fast enough.

It's not OP vs tankier races. Try playing something squishy against that ability, especially IG who's only choice to deal damage quickly to a HI squad in t1 is to close into melee with Catas. Everything else (barrage, spotters etc) is just delaying the inevitable - total rape of your power farm, or your army.

6. Rhino damage resistance.

I guess you're coming from an IG perspective, and there have been rumblings that GK are a particularly tough match-up for them atm.

Played against them with Orks and SM as well, and played as them.

[Indrid]

Trust me my poor Heretics know how potent Purgation flamers are.

[Torpid]

I think it would be wise if you for once did a different build with your IG. For example getting catachans is very unwise vs grey knights and multiple sentinels are the way to go.

I'm not going to bother going through each point because it would take too long, but I pretty much disagree with you on everything. I do agree that IST are a fantastic t1 unit, as are the strike squad and the purgation squad (whose ability is currently very OP, but their innate suppression is fine), however all of those squads become really really shit come t2 and that's when you change your playstyle around from defensive to offensive - in t2, there is no point over-extending before that point vs a foe of comparable skill.

[Lag]

Yes Torpid, I only make one build ever. Thanks for the input btw.

[Flash]

I'll say a bit more later, but I find IG to be my hardest matchup as GK. 2x sents is so hard to deal with in t1. Additionally I find catachans to actually be a rather thorny pain vs gk. I'm leery of jumping interceptors into gm or anywhere near when there are catachans nearby cause that shotgun and power melee is pretty nasty on them.

[Torpid]

So don't buy GKI vs IG who get catachans then? Cats come out before GKI and if they buy them after some other t1.5 then get a purgation and incinerate their asses. Cats die very very fast to purgs.

[Ar-Aamon]

So don't buy GKI vs IG who get catachans then? Cats come out before GKI and if they buy them after some other t1.5 then get a purgation and incinerate their asses. Cats die very very fast to purgs.

Yeah if they have Psycannons...but till then good luck (fire resistence).

GKI to counter the heavy weapon team maybe?! Here we go.

And concerning the flamer damage of Palas\Termis: The only way to counter Imp Blobs with bunker play.

[Orkfaeller]

I never found that Catachans' fire resistance does much,

in fact I'd go so far and say that I get Flamers ( on tactical marines ) as a response to Catachans.

[Dark Riku]

I pretty much agree with everything Indrid said.

IG don't have stuff to kill on retreat either before t2, and they bleed helluva lot more. I'm not saying Interceptors shouldn't be able to kill anything. I'm just saying it shouldn't be so easy as 1-click.

GM just die, they don't bleed you. Catas don't even drop models ~~
And bias much? Catas can easily wipe stuff in retreat. 1 click IED for example.

[Lag]

Cata fire resistance is bullshit. They melt like butter to flames.

[Ar-Aamon]

Cata fire resistance is bullshit. They melt like butter to flames.

I wouldn't say bullshit. It's more like they have heavy armor against flamers...

[Torpid]

I did say incinerate for a reason... That means burn, because catachans melt to fire. Fire resistance is a thing but with bloody good reason because due to the formation and damage sharing nature of catachans without it they would die in seconds to any fire. The fact of the matter is that despite them having fire resistance their unit formation makes them very vulnerable to fire.

[Ar-Aamon]

I did say incinerate for a reason... That means burn, because catachans melt to fire. Fire resistance is a thing but with bloody good reason because due to the formation and damage sharing nature of catachans without it they would die in seconds to any fire. The fact of the matter is that despite them having fire resistance their unit formation makes them very vulnerable to fire.

Well I never questioned that they shouldn't have fire resistance in fact they have it for reasons as you showed it with the post above.

[crazyman64335]

i'm just going to point out Indrid you forgot the #5 in your post . As for the topic at hand if purgs are melting your entire army get a suppression team, their range is inferior. As for early game pressure the already mentioned 2x sentinel build is there. And if the GK player gets both purgs and interceptors in t1 just fast tech (assuming you're playing team games) and crank out a chim, get some plasma guns on your guardsmen and that should make things easier for you.

[Indrid]

Seems like Lag forgot #5 too, since I just copy/pasted his titles.

[Codex]

There will be no further mention #<REDACTED>, that number is verboten does not exist.

[Lag]

It was the Tzeentch in me, introducing confusion to coherent discussion.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I'll say a bit more later, but I find IG to be my hardest matchup as GK. 2x sents is so hard to deal with in t1. Additionally I find catachans to actually be a rather thorny pain vs gk. I'm leery of jumping interceptors into gm or anywhere near when there are catachans nearby cause that shotgun and power melee is pretty nasty on them.

2x Sentinel, can have 2 xST w interceptor & Mantle of terra disabling Sents stomp and Cats altogether,2 ST w Sgt will deal sufficent dps to Sents ,just constant switch Sent targets. Cats ,buff WATH/MB on interceptor on Cats,ofc COA requires precise timing .

i Think COA is too gud to give intercep energy-regene OT , maybe remove that effect and keep disabled abilities in the AOE or let CoA retains its Energy-OT as Intercep needs their Synergy and removes COA disability since ppl QQ alot about it , tis like a Tempo-Dark Exo. Anyways,i prefer the 1st Option Fair choice.

[Lag]

Going for double Sent might be viable in 1v1, but doing so in a 2v2 is pretty shitty. Sents get progressively harder to keep alive as the game goes on, especially if you have Chaos in the opposing team (mark of Tzeentch on CSM), unlike the stuff they need to counter. It is especially shitty as Sents neither bleed themselves, or bleed SMey units because they lose models hard, so they can be well into t3 and only lvl2.

[Torpid]

Tell Gordon Ramsey that. Double sentinels work well in every single game mode, that includes 3v3, work with your teammate, never fight a double, play cautiously and focus fire his IST, IST bleed horribly to sentinels and it's not like anything else such as strike squads/purg/gki can even phase your sentinels.

If his ally has TCSM then your ally should have ASM right?

[Lag]

There is a reason why you have only one dude to show as an example - tt is because it is very hard. And he does keep losing them in t2. I've played a lot of 2v2s with him (great guy and great player).

[Torpid]

Or Ace of Swords, or myself or half of the retail 2v2 player-base. Sentinels got nerfed in elite so people stopped doing multiple sentinel builds, but then people realised they could combine them with repair bunkers and therefore there was a short revival. I would certainly recommend people to try some different builds as GK and against GK, they really do change the meta with their weird unit composition.

[Bahamut]

Didnt Sentinels actually get buffed in elite?. Just that they need 15 power to stomp, that's all

[Codex]

Changes:

Reduced base hp from 750 to 700, removed stomp from vanilla sentinel.
Added upgrade which gives stomp and +100 hp.

So overall, in its upgraded form it has +50 hp compared to retail. However, that's probably a nerf considering that getting the stomp for free at the start made the sentinel hugely dominant in the early game, and streamlined IG's economy allowing for very fast tech timings.

[Ace of Swords]

Wasn't the cost lowered aswell? like retail sent is 350 and here it's just 300 req?

[Bahamut]

yeah sadly, the changelog of retail to 2.1 is missing for IG and chaos. So the specific changes are lost in memories lol

IIRC they price got reduced by 50 req, but that's the 50 req you need for the stomp upgrade, so overall you pay the same req but now you add 15 power to it. Altho the sentinel is supposed to have better health and more staying power for t2 with the missile launchers.

In any case, i dont think sentinels ever got "nerfed" in elite

[Torpid]

It is, but stomp isn't really a viable purchase in most MUs now, especially in 1v1, overall it was definitely a nerf and a damn well big one at that. Also guardsmen repair speed was nerfed in elite.