Seer Council, what's the point?

[xerrol nanoha]

500 hp per model basic infantry that deals 40 DPS power melee.
So they're mostly helpless vs vehicles and are universally vulnerable to all ranged damage types.
What can Seer Council do that Banshees won't be more cost effective at doing?

[Asmon]

Nothing, except to help regenerating energy. Woo, that's a blast.

[Dark Riku]

They also provide you with a 50% suppression reduction. They have a passive leap.
They can retreat, levels, etc.

[SirSid]

Banshees + Antarck + seer councel

now u have a melley blob that moves VERY fast and can attack on 3 fronts , is hard to supres has leap , has jump , has kockback , can be buffed with comander and globals that effect all 3.

If seer Council get to level 2 they are very dangrous level 3 or 4 is just a joke , DEATH TO UPGRADED NOBS !!!

[Lag]

A very situational squad, much more than Nobs, but they will tear you a new one if you are sporting what they are countering.

[David-CZ]

Seers are fine. Because of the things Riku mentioned either buffing their durability or changing them to heavy melee for example would be way too strong. And both their initial and reinforce cost seems fine too. Basically any infantry that is non-terminator or nobs gets owned by them. As well as the commanders.

[Arbit]

Basically you get them for their Twirling Torpedo Attack (TM)

Alternate name, Psycho Crusher

[xerrol nanoha]

either buffing their durability or changing them to heavy melee for example would be way too strong

I was thinking exactly that "why aren't seer council heavy melee like paladins? would make more sense as Eldar already have power melee intensive banshees but no heavy melee infantry other than Farseer Spear(which isn't good anymore because everyone gets doomstaff?), and Strength Banshee Exarch (and wraithlord/avatar)?" but then I remembered that Paladins suck.

[Vapor]

either buffing their durability or changing them to heavy melee for example would be way too strong

I was thinking exactly that "why aren't seer council heavy melee like paladins? would make more sense as Eldar already have power melee intensive banshees but no heavy melee infantry other than Farseer Spear(which isn't good anymore because everyone gets doomstaff?), and Strength Banshee Exarch (and wraithlord/avatar)?" but then I remembered that Paladins suck.

Eldar AV is quite good as it stands. Also, it's not that the singing spear is bad, it's just that the other weapons are way more fun and synergize well with other wargears. I mean if I wanted to use a straight up melee weapon I would play warlock or warboss or something.

[Torpid]

Mind war + fortune + singing spear is my preferred build with the farseer atm. It gives your eldar build some extra AV which is nice when you do a build reliant on suppression without strength shees and with little intention of getting spiders/dragons too.

[Forestradio]

seer council do more power melee dps than any other squad except for lightning claw terminators. They can level and retreat.

their passive charge leap is a fantastic tool for killing infantry.

don't underestimate them at all, even if most people prefer fire prisms/avatar.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the seer council has enough health to get into melee, baring suppression, and does a lot of damage to non-vehicles. infantry armour means they don't take extra damage from plasma or power melee.

[ThongSong]

they're ranged attack is actually quite powerful

[David-CZ]

they're ranged attack is actually quite powerful

What is their ranged DPS anyway? I know it isn't bad but I've never actually known how much it is.

[Kvek]

they're ranged attack is actually quite powerful

What is their ranged DPS anyway? I know it isn't bad but I've never actually known how much it is.

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/Eld_Destructor

[Lulgrim]

Nope we changed it --> http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon. ... er_council

Also it looks like the Wikia site has incorrect reload times for all destructor types?

[HandSome SoddiNg]

500 hp per model basic infantry that deals 40 DPS power melee.
So they're mostly helpless vs vehicles and are universally vulnerable to all ranged damage types.
What can Seer Council do that Banshees won't be more cost effective at doing?

Never occured to me Eldar is Powerless against Vehicle play unlike Retail now they Have so Much Diversity in Elite, They always Mix their Unit composition with sufficient AV FD/BL/Wraithlord,etc. SC/Nobz can both level & retreat, Normally Warlock supports w Channeling runes on SC & put Distort field whilst the Farseer will buff the crap outta em w Defenses & Offensive spells . WS Exarch teleport em around for Flanking maneuvers . Their Best Synergy would be WL/FS
& Their also Excellent at Retreat kills, Could take on Termies and Poke & Praddle Predators alike.

Losing your Banshees in T2, nvr a Bad choice to go for SC in T3

[Cyris]

I am also in the "don't quite get this unit" camp. Their reinforcement cost specifically (upkeep too) really hurt them for me. No defensive sterroids, only average health for T3 melee and infantry armor type for vulnerability to ranged blobs means they usually bleed. and while damage is good, it is not great. The unit ultimately feels incredible dependent on army and buffs to work, but has a price tag that implies much more.

The thing is, the D-cannon, Prism and Avartar are each AMAZING in their own ways. The council seems like a enhanced shee squad that costs a ton to reinforce. I'd often rather have shees because of this! Both will provide a comparable amount of distraction, flanking, counter to enemy melee closing in, but shees reinforce for far less!

[David-CZ]

The fact they need buffs and such as you put it explains why they were a call-in exclusively for FS.

[ThongSong]

out of the entire eldar t3 arsenal, if my eldar opponent hits t3 before I do the unit I want to see them use is a seer council. because that means it can be countered with a dread or your hero's anti melee blob wargear.

if they come out with a fire prism, or heaven forbid, an avatar, that makes me shit bricks much more than any seer council

[Broodwich]

Yeah they really arent worth the price point. For their utility they feel more like a t2.5 unit than a t3 unit anyway. A cost reduction to like 500/80 or something with a leader upgrade of 100/30 or so who is a farseer (model) with singing spear (hvy melee) that also gives an ability would make it a much more interesting unit.

The cost reduction also ofc comes -1 model to make it a 4 model 2000 inf hp squad. Leader would bump it back up to 2500. I'm no eldar expert but I'm sure someone will come up with a good ability with some fluff backround. I mean cmon they are all psykers, it could be anything really

[Ace of Swords]

None of you has seen a propely used seer council in action apparently.

[Cyris]

Clearly not. Care to share?

More specifically, the unit showing itself to be more valuable than banshees in a matchup of closely skilled players. My assumption is that they will need to leverage their advantages over shees which look to be: energy aura, leap

[Torpid]

Higher damage and higher health on top of that. Essentially you're comparing T2 genestealers to hormagaunts. Use seers as fantastic counter-initiation and to deal with the SHI that your wraithlords/set-up teams can't deal with. I think Seers are just as fine as genes.

[xerrol nanoha]

Higher damage and higher health on top of that. Essentially you're comparing T2 genestealers to hormagaunts. Use seers as fantastic counter-initiation and to deal with the SHI that your wraithlords/set-up teams can't deal with. I think Seers are just as fine as genes.

Except that genes perform noticeably better against terminator types than seer council (with synapse of course).

[Bahamut]

Higher damage and higher health on top of that. Essentially you're comparing T2 genestealers to hormagaunts. Use seers as fantastic counter-initiation and to deal with the SHI that your wraithlords/set-up teams can't deal with. I think Seers are just as fine as genes.

Except that genes perform noticeably better against terminator types than seer council
(with synapse of course).

whaaaaat? how do you get to that conclusion?

[Sub_Zero]

Come on! You can't even complain about them. They retreat and have 2500 health with crazy power melee weapons and very annoying leap. Yes, kinda expensive to get them. And Eldar commanders have great ways to improve their combat capabilities. Be glad that they were given to each commander. And lc termies were given to each chaos commander, btw...

[Torpid]

But as a race tyranids only have zoanthropes to force the enemy into moving into them, which are easily countered by ranged vehicles and snipers. Eldar get their super-duper damage immunity shields, all that control from their heroes silly abilities, and control units such as the prism/d-cannon/wraithlord's with ranged weapons to force the enemy to come at you. That's why I like the seers as counter-initiation when I play the Farseer or when I lack the power to get the avatar.

[xerrol nanoha]

Higher damage and higher health on top of that. Essentially you're comparing T2 genestealers to hormagaunts. Use seers as fantastic counter-initiation and to deal with the SHI that your wraithlords/set-up teams can't deal with. I think Seers are just as fine as genes.

Except that genes perform noticeably better against terminator types than seer council
(with synapse of course).

whaaaaat? how do you get to that conclusion?

Don't be misled by the Genestealer's deceptivly low numbers.
They're base squad health may be 1140 but with melee synapse alone thats 1995.
Added with 20% melee damage reduction of basic synapse (1995/.8) is 2494.
That's pretty close to the Seer Council's 2500 hp.

In addition Genestealers have a +1 speed advantage, cost 40% less supply, and with adrenaline rush they can reach 43.8 power melee (above the 40 of Seer Council) - the 7% adrenaline rush lifesteal gives genes more survivability than the Seer council (with synapse).

To put icing on the cake, Genestealers are available in tier 2, and cost 35.4req / 4.6power to reinforce compared to the 80 req/ 15power of a council model, and cost half the upkeep of a seer council model at 5.1 (compared to 10.2 SC) (seer council wins the initial power cost battle at none and 600 req compared to 450 req / 50 power for genes).

AND IF THAT WEREN'T ENOUGH?
you can have MULTIPLE genestealer squads, which not only means they're more expendable for fighting things like Terminators, but in greater mass they will be more effective.

Perhaps 1 LONE genestealer squad is worse at fighting terminator types than 1 LONE Seer council squad, but seeing as Melee synapse is almost always available no matter what commander you pick and what composition you run, I see no reason not to factor that into equation (since genestealers are pretty unreliable without it).

My conclusion is: In their easy army synergy and the ability to produce more of them and their earlier availability... I would say they're 'noticeably' better at fighting terminator types than the Seer Council.

But I should add that I'm not complaining about the Seer Council, only defending my point that genestealers (with basic and melee synapse) are better.

[Forestradio]

Higher damage and higher health on top of that. Essentially you're comparing T2 genestealers to hormagaunts. Use seers as fantastic counter-initiation and to deal with the SHI that your wraithlords/set-up teams can't deal with. I think Seers are just as fine as genes.

Except that genes perform noticeably better against terminator types than seer council
(with synapse of course).

that is highly debatable, especially since genestealers must have another unit (melee synapse warriors) to reach their full potential