Ork Topic

[krakza]

I'd like to suggest the Painboy's explosion be changed so that it can't target himself.
I say this because I've just finished a game in which I blew up my own Painboy... RIP

[MyMe]

Try using the Painboy explosion on a shoota nob I know i've accidentally clicked on the nob a couple of times during frantic battles lol

[Kvek]

sorc subjagate:)

[caralimon]

Oh come on, you just can't say "hey, the RazorBack armor upgrade costs the same and gives the same HP, so the cost of Wartruk Reinforced Plating is fine". Or "yeah, it's an unnecesarry upgrade, whatever".

What if your 5600 HP Avatar had an upgrade that gave it 200 HP more for those 100/30? Would it be fine just cos other units have the same upgrade for the same cost? No, no one would buy it. When evaluating upgrades you always have to take into account the base cost, effectiveness and tier of the unit receiving the upgrade as well as the upgrade tier.

What with Burnaz 'n Bitz upgrade for the Deff Dread, then? Is it all of sudden too cheap at 140/20 just cos it gives the Deff double the hp than the RB armor upgrade (+400 instead of +200) besides the added Burna, for even less power (20 instead of 30 power)? (rethoric question, it's perfectly fine IMHO).

I thought one of the points of the mod was toning down overperforming units/upgrades/wargear and giving some life to the "useless" ones. Reinforced Plating for the Wartruk was terrible in retail and still is in ELITE, if you're not changing it might just as well delete it from the game.

Since you brought up the Razorback, for a 100/30 cost i would rather give the Wartruk the same DPS than the RazorBack and bring its speed down accordingly from 9 to 8. At least that way Orks would have a decent Anti Infantry DPS ranged T2 vehicle.

But really, the easiest solution is just decreasing Wartruk RPlating power cost significantly. I know this is a very minor and obscure issue, but since ELITE is into balancing the game, let's do it as thoroughly as possible.

[Dark Riku]

I thought one of the points of the mod was toning down overperforming units/upgrades/wargear and giving some life to the "useless" ones. Reinforced Plating for the Wartruk was terrible in retail and still is in ELITE, if you're not changing it might just as well delete it from the game.

Lol yes. Let's remove it....
It's fine as it is.

Your comparison with the avatar makes no sense at all.

[Torpid]

@caralimon

Read my response again. See if it makes sense.

[caralimon]

@Dark Riku

My comparison with the avatar makes as little sense as the comparison to the RazorBack armor upgrade, which was my intention

Ok, here's a last try. As of 2.2 patch preview notes, Wartruk will get a decreased cost of 200/30.

Let's say i buy a Wartruk. Now I have 2 choices:

- Upgrade its HP with Reinforced Plating for 100/30, so i have 1 Wartruk in the field with 550 HP, 17 DPS, for a final cost of 300/60.

- Buy another Wartruk for 200/30, so i have 2 Wartruks in the field, 700 combined HP, 34 combined DPS, for a final cost of 400/60. So I can deliver da boyz behind the lines in 2 different places, do back caps in 2 different places, i have double the DPS, and 150 more HP in total as meatshield for ma boyz as i deliver them behind the enemy lines. All this for just 100 req more than a single upgraded Wartruk.

The only downside to this is you have slightly higher upkeep, and need for a bit more micro. But in a real scenario you only wait to make the 2nd wartruk in case you're going to lose the first one, so no upkeep penalty.

Can you still not see the issue? In case of a Razorback, it MAKES sense sometimes to give it the extra 200 hp for 100/30, because making another costs a LOT more (taking build time into account as well) than upgrading the existing one. But for the Wartruk it NEVER makes sense to upgrade it for that much power and req.

My intent here is trying to make a worthless upgrade for the wartruk somewhat better, nothing else. I might be wrong but some of you sound like "but the RB upgrade costs the same! why would the wartruk get a better deal than my precious RB????!".

If decreasing Wartruk Reinforced Plate power cost doesn't sound right to you for that reason, Ok, let's then remake it into something else, like the example i gave in a previous post. But leaving it as it is currently is as good as if it just wasn't there, no wise player will spend that amount of resources on it.

[Retaliation]

Yet all it would take is something like a single autocannon to put that 700 health to 350 and you down 200/30. Upgrading one trukk on the other hand would allow you to send it into situations where an unupgraded trukk would die no matter what and not lose power. Health on one model is more valuable than health divided between several. It's a niche upgrade, but there's nothing wrong with that.

[Kvek]

Lol no sense...

Why the fuck would you buy 2x trukk¨. It's just better to have one and if it dies but another one..
Reinforced Plating is useful if your opponent has some hard av since trukk with 350 hp won't survive even 2 las cannon shots

[Darkbulborb]

How do you guys feel about that the deff dread is the only walker who cannot upgrade himself to an anti-vehicle unit? I think we can easily turn the burnaz in rokkit launchers or perhaps kustom mega blastas. It's quite annoying that if tanks move backwards, even with the rampage activated, a deff dread is not able to attack tanks.

[Torpid]

Why should the deff dread, a t2 walker vehicle similar in price to the bloodcrusher, not the chaos dreadnought, be able to counter t3 tanks which cost sbustantially more. I think the deff dread should be considered a bloodcrusher, it's cheap and cheerful and very effective for a vehicle rush, heck double deff dreads is often a very good strategy when combined with stormboys and some tankbustas, that build covers all areas. My point however is that the deff dread is not like the wraithlord or other dreadnoughts, it costs far less and your t2 cannot revolve around it, you usually need to get another t2 purchase.

Also the 'walkers' of the tyranids and the imperial guard lack AV upgrade - ogryns and the tyrant guard. Sentinels are also no excuse because of how little damage their AV actually does, and how expensive it is and how easily they are killed...

[Darkbulborb]

I agree with you on the tyrant guard, but the sentinel can get AV rockets, still in tier 2, but most IG players manage to keep him alive. Why I see a Deff Dread as a Dreadnought, Chaos Dreadnought, Wraithlord or whatever, because he is one, Deff "death" Dread "Dreadnought". and even in tabletop it's considered an equal to those mentioned above. I believe a bloodcrusher has more speed too, bloodcrushers beat deff dreads as well.

[Lulgrim]

It's quite annoying that if tanks move backwards, even with the rampage activated, a deff dread is not able to attack tanks.

It's annoying if your build is countered? Tanks are designed to hard counter walkers ya git... only Tzeentch Dread is meant to stand up to tanks. Obviously the VC Fex can, but that thing T3 and very expensive too. MM Dread and BL Wraithlord are not tank counters, they should be shot apart from beyond their range.

Anti-tank Deff Dread, what the hell.

[Darkbulborb]

It's quite annoying that if tanks move backwards, even with the rampage activated, a deff dread is not able to attack tanks.

It's annoying if your build is countered?

no, I only made a suggestion since wraithlords and dreadnoughts and chaos dreadnoughts can buy AV too, why not just remove them if they're not being made for that as well. and still you got to choose between burnaz and the eventual AV weapon then, can't have both.

[Kvek]

sigh Deff Dread is FINE so why he needs some changes ?
Oh my god Darkbulb ....

[Darkbulborb]

sigh Deff Dread is FINE so why he needs some changes ?
Oh my god Darkbulb ....

if you have nothing to add to my suggestions, then don't react to them. I only see you being critic while providing nothing why it shouldn't be done. So either come up with a story or just don't react.

[Kvek]

Beacause deff dread has low hp out the gate. low cost. can charge-AV walker that can charge ? and as they said deff dread is like a bloodcrusher. +Orks have a lot of AV weirdboy shot, stikks can stun, beamy,tankbustas and even more so why more av ?

[Raffa]

sigh Deff Dread is FINE so why he needs some changes ?
Oh my god Darkbulb ....

if you have nothing to add to my suggestions, then don't react to them. I only see you being critic while providing nothing why it shouldn't be done. So either come up with a story or just don't react.

don't encourage him. He's the same as yarrick

[MyMe]

While as "cool" as an AV deff dread would be, I would also have to agree that it is out of place. It's an anti-infantry walker, and really should be kept as such (hence the splash damage, anti infantry/gen upgrade). Sure, it can help a little taking down another vehicle with support, but it's best when whacking on ASM or rushing into those Devastors that are suppressing your army.

[Nurland]

I agree with you on the tyrant guard, but the sentinel can get AV rockets, still in tier 2, but most IG players manage to keep him alive. Why I see a Deff Dread as a Dreadnought, Chaos Dreadnought, Wraithlord or whatever, because he is one, Deff "death" Dread "Dreadnought". and even in tabletop it's considered an equal to those mentioned above. I believe a bloodcrusher has more speed too, bloodcrushers beat deff dreads as well.

Deff Dread costs 250/50 iirc. Wraithlord 400/100, Chaos Dread 410/120, SM Dread 450/120, GK Dread 500/130 or something along the lines. So no, it is not in the same caste as Dreadnoughts and Wraithlords. The balance of the original game or the elite mod is not based on tabletop.

BC is more expensive than Deff Dread (350/60), cannot be upgraded, has no ranged attack, no splash and no super long rage rape special. It does more dps to single entities while Deff does more dps to blobs of infantry.

[Ace of Swords]

I agree with you on the tyrant guard, but the sentinel can get AV rockets, still in tier 2, but most IG players manage to keep him alive. Why I see a Deff Dread as a Dreadnought, Chaos Dreadnought, Wraithlord or whatever, because he is one, Deff "death" Dread "Dreadnought". and even in tabletop it's considered an equal to those mentioned above. I believe a bloodcrusher has more speed too, bloodcrushers beat deff dreads as well.

Deff Dread costs 250/50 iirc. Wraithlord 400/100, Chaos Dread 410/120, SM Dread 450/120, GK Dread 500/130 or something along the lines. So no, it is not in the same caste as Dreadnoughts and Wraithlords. The balance of the original game or the elite mod is not based on tabletop.

BC is more expensive than Deff Dread (350/60), cannot be upgraded, has no ranged attack, no splash and no super long rage rape special. It does more dps to single entities while Deff does more dps to blobs of infantry.

270/70
450/100
410/120
450/125
500/120

In that order.

[Nurland]

Actually DD is 250/60 I remembered it got 20 power price reduction from retail but it was 10 at least according to Kvek.

And thanks for the more accurate numbers Ace.

[Helios]

So..... has any one discovered a certain ridiculous, somewhat (IMO) unfair synergy between 2 wargear options that the K-Nob has? I'm not gonna say much more but it's essentially an exploding flying Kommando Nob.

[Kvek]

the armor that makes his kaboom take no damage ? nah it's fair you need some positioning, Knob is very easily focus fired while doing it

[Kvek]

the armor that makes his kaboom take no damage ? nah it's fair you need some positioning, Knob is very easily focus fired while doing it

Or the hook ability armor

[Ace of Swords]

So..... has any one discovered a certain ridiculous, somewhat (IMO) unfair synergy between 2 wargear options that the K-Nob has? I'm not gonna say much more but it's essentially an exploding flying Kommando Nob.

Just say what it is otherwise we cannot know :/

Actually DD is 250/60 I remembered it got 20 power price reduction from retail but it was 10 at least according to Kvek.

It's really that cheap? im gonna check later i hope it's not the case lol.

Well i checked, it's 250/60 indeed, well that's quite stupid if you ask me, what's the difference between retail orks and elite orks? Their eco is almost better there than retail, especially considering the upcoming changes which make the trukk only 20 req more expensive than retail, the cheaper deff especially the 10 power difference and now only 15 power for the sluggas' burnas.

[dance commander]

The deff dread/bloodcrusher comparison is unfair, the reason the bloodcrusher is so overpriced is because it used to cost 45 power, at the time there was a problem of chaos players rushing a bloocrusher wich was extremely strong, before the power increase though there had been a build time increase wich was deemed not enough (the bloodcrusher takes 50 seconds to build, while a normal vehicle takes usually half the time).

Both changes stuck to this time for some reason, even though the meta has changed a lot and the bc is barely purchased anymore, but yeah comparing the price of both units is unfair because of the above.

[Arbit]

AoS, here is the changelog, which I assume is fairly up to date. Wartrukk used to be 180/20, not 180/30. There's a good mix of nerfs and buffs in there. Nob frenzy got the shit nerfed out of it.

The blood crusher still has some really nice advantages over the deff dread: charge, shout, worship healing, and worship effects. Trying to kill a BC while it is healing and infiltrated is a pain in the ass.

[Vapor]

So..... has any one discovered a certain ridiculous, somewhat (IMO) unfair synergy between 2 wargear options that the K-Nob has? I'm not gonna say much more but it's essentially an exploding flying Kommando Nob.

Muahahahaha!

[Torpid]

The deff dread/bloodcrusher comparison is unfair, the reason the bloodcrusher is so overpriced is because it used to cost 45 power, at the time there was a problem of chaos players rushing a bloocrusher wich was extremely strong, before the power increase though there had been a build time increase wich was deemed not enough (the bloodcrusher takes 50 seconds to build, while a normal vehicle takes usually half the time).

Both changes stuck to this time for some reason, even though the meta has changed a lot and the bc is barely purchased anymore, but yeah comparing the price of both units is unfair because of the above.

45 power would be ridiculous now. It isn't overpriced, it is fine how it is. The bloodcrusher is a really good unit still, and can, with good micro, survive quite well throughout the whole of t2.

Anyways we're all drifting off topic here. The point remains that there is no reason the deff dread, or the ork race, would need AV on a vehicle in t2. It just isn't needed, and would just risk posing a balance issue for no reason. The deff dread is not meant to counter tanks OFC, since the deff dread is a ridiculously cheap t2 walker, no walker is meant to counter tanks. Even the Tzeentch-dread isn't a direct counter to tanks as it has such low speed and costs so much. Just imagine how stupid it would be if you could get a deff dread to counter an enemy razorback/chimera. It would be an absolute joke, at least tzeentch-noughts cost a ton!