Land Raider Phobos

[Kvek]

Maybe just give the thing 5k hp and be covered in warboss spiky armour so melee can't touch it without receiving a 100 heavy melee damage per hit with a splash radius of 42.

Can we keep it real here please?

Don't take all his posts seriously, he likes to be sarcastic, a lot.

[Tex]

Why buff it when the thing isn't even underperforming atm???????

If this thing doesn't underperform, I want to know how you feel about all of the tanks in this game that aren't super units.

[Torpid]

Why buff it when the thing isn't even underperforming atm???????

If this thing doesn't underperform, I want to know how you feel about all of the tanks in this game that aren't super units.

Riddle me elsewhere, what about tanks?

[Dark Riku]

Just throwing out a random idea here: maybe we could add a burny AoE DoT aftereffect to the lascannons to improve its utility against infantry?

That's the GUO's job. Phobos is AV.

The GUO's job is long range AV with a minor anti infantry AOE DOT?

Reading comprehension...

The Phobos isn't under performing. It's doing what it's intended to do.

[Arbit]

Reading comprehension...

No, I understand what you're saying, it's just ridiculous. You're saying if you add an anti-infantry burning effect to a ranged lascannon on a vehicle armor unit that still does primarily AV damage there will be too much overlap with a heavy melee demon with super heavy infantry armor and crowd control abilities. They would still be radically different units with different purposes.

[saltychipmunk]

I dono , when ever i see a land raider of any type i always think that their damage output feels low.. now that i think about none of the super units have particularly impressive standard attacks (for their unit costs).

it is all in their abilities

[Torpid]

All super unit ranged variants do huge damage with their default attacks bar the battlewagon, but that things just, just a battlewagon... try standing banshees near a land raider redeemer's flamers, or some shoota boys, they melt.

[saltychipmunk]

All super unit ranged variants do huge damage with their default attacks bar the battlewagon, but that things just, just a battlewagon... try standing banshees near a land raider redeemer's flamers, or some shoota boys, they melt.

those are also t1 units that have the weakest durability attributes in the game.

high model count, low model hp with infantry armor. you don't need a land raider to one shot those squads.

we are talking about a t3 super unit vs a t1 starter unit. Not a fantastic comparison if you ask me. you also inadvertently demonstrated my point with your comment .

"try standing banshees near a land raider " exactly: you have to be rubbing noses with it for its so-called awesome weapons to be felt. Now what kind of silly person would do that?

remember this is t3 , even eldar would be breaking out the prisms / d-cannons and wraith guard by now. those should be the kind of units to make a comparison too .

often the effectiveness of a weapon is not in how much damage it can do , but the reliability in which it can deal said damage. This is why shoota boy upgrades tend to be more reliable than say squad upgrades that add frag grenades for less skilled players.

the shootaboy squad just flat up adds hp model count and damage to an already constant method of damage. But by all means an eldar plasma grenade used correctly has far superior damage potential . Yet if you miss with it , then all that money is wasted. The same can be said for land raiders, they are easy to predict and even easier to guard against making their damage unreliable , thus givin the impression that they are under powered.

[Torpid]

Oh for goodness sake, that's the point of the damn LRR. The phobos bitchslaps terminators from across the map because that's just what it does. The LRR is a big gigantic support vehicle which is meant to chill in the middle, slightly to the rear of your army. It provides healing, reinforcement and great protection against melee due to it having crazy high damage to all infantry that get close to it and the frag barrage and the ability to be garrisoned. You obviously don't get a LRR vs an eldar with a nice eco and lots of pop left for wraithguard, prisms and d cannons. You would get it to counter seers/avatar/nobs.
The baneblade is just OP because it's IG in t3 and costs loads and is impossible to get in 1v1 and so kills everything.

[Orkfaeller]

Reading comprehension...

No, I understand what you're saying, it's just ridiculous. You're saying if you add an anti-infantry burning effect to a ranged lascannon on a vehicle armor unit that still does primarily AV damage there will be too much overlap with a heavy melee demon with super heavy infantry armor and crowd control abilities. They would still be radically different units with different purposes.

Gotta admit, it would be kinda badass if it would scorch the earth along its LasCannon trails^^

[saltychipmunk]

Oh for goodness sake, that's the point of the damn LRR. The phobos bitchslaps terminators from across the map because that's just what it does. The LRR is a big gigantic support vehicle which is meant to chill in the middle, slightly to the rear of your army. It provides healing, reinforcement and great protection against melee due to it having crazy high damage to all infantry that get close to it and the frag barrage and the ability to be garrisoned. You obviously don't get a LRR vs an eldar with a nice eco and lots of pop left for wraithguard, prisms and d cannons. You would get it to counter seers/avatar/nobs.
The baneblade is just OP because it's IG in t3 and costs loads and is impossible to get in 1v1 and so kills everything.

i just used eldar as an example, but really any race with long ranged av will crush a land raider unless you have a huge army to back it up , but if you have that large army , then you had a crap ton of resources floating about and probably already out played your opponent.

my question then is why get a land raider at all? Atleast with a bb you can kind of get away with it because yes it can drastically change the play field with its squad murdering abilities and long range. therefore you can honestly build a strat around it.

but a land raider seems like a means to rub ones victory into the face of the losing team AS it seems like you would need an already formidable army to really make use of its abilities

I suppose that is merely a matter of personal taste in units at that point.

[Dark Riku]

Please specify which Land Raider variant you are talking about. (LRR, LRP, LRC)

I'm guessing you are talking about teamgames and all the landraiders can be of great use in those. Or in any other game mode for that matter.

[saltychipmunk]

all of them actually. I hate all three.
the weapons compliment on them isnt horrible , but when you look at their unit cost often 800 req and power in the 200s. Its potency seems lacking

on top of that every land raider suffers from the same blatantly obvious set of vulnerabilities that every races can easily exploit.

they are massive bulky and slow moving pathfinding nightmares , that despite any kind of damage potential they have , are insanely easy to kill off.

I am not saying they don't work. But for the money and in some cases red investment they are shockingly clunky and hard to use. And i often find using t3 super infantry to be a much more flexible and potent investment.

Hell in team games i will spam kaskrins before ill even look at a baneblade for very similar reasons. In some cases that may be a stupid choice i know , but atleast I know that i wont lose them to a tank stun / arty global combo that often kills off land raiders before they even do anything


I wouldn't even consider using one in 1v1 game unless the game went on forever or i was playing ig (ie not a landraider). but generally I detest those kind of matches and try to end most of mine before t3 hits for that reason.

[Arbit]

For the LRR (the one I have the most experience with), you don't need a "huge army" to support it. You really just need to force off the AV, which should be doable given the reinforcement/healing aura and anti-infantry support it offers. It's true that it doesn't have the same direct impact in combat as a BB/avatar/GUO, but that's part of its design. It's more of a mobile base than a direct attack unit.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

A LRR and the LRC are really difficult to destroy, because first you have to force off the support squads. And having the Healing/Reinforcing/Retreat beacon for the LRR and the Healing/Energy regen/Reinforcing aura for the LRC there is not easy to do.

Without having in mind their 2500 for LRR /3250 hp for LRC.

LRP, on the other hand, is easier to destroy it. "Only" 2k hp, no healing, energy, reinforce aura or retreat beacon, if you managed to force the support squads, the LRP with some snare is relatively easy to smash.

Yeah, the Khorne/Tzeentch workshipp helps a lot the LRP... if you are smart and your workshipping heretics aren't pathblocking you.

[saltychipmunk]

A LRR and the LRC are really difficult to destroy, because first you have to force off the support squads. And having the Healing/Reinforcing/Retreat beacon for the LRR and the Healing/Energy regen/Reinforcing aura for the LRC there is not easy to do.

Without having in mind their 2500 for LRR /3250 hp for LRC.

LRP, on the other hand, is easier to destroy it. "Only" 2k hp, no healing, energy, reinforce aura or retreat beacon, if you managed to force the support squads, the LRP with some snare is relatively easy to smash.

Yeah, the Khorne/Tzeentch workshipp helps a lot the LRP... if you are smart and your workshipping heretics aren't pathblocking you.

I will agree with you that of the three , the LRP is by far the easiest to deal with. due to your above reasons.

Heretics can be invaluable , but i find that very late game it is extremely easy to lose them doing things like that.

[crazyman64335]

i think the problem that you guys are missing (i think somebody mentioned it earlier not sure) is that the land raiders in this game are hardly a viable option most of the time. Due to their extreme size pathing becomes EVEN MORE of an issue with these units. As if the pathing with tanks wasn't a big enough of a problem. myself i've practically given up on the phobos unless i want my opponent just wrecking that instead of something else in my army. I mean i could build 3x autocannon havocs for about the same price

[taco86]

The pathing issues are the major problem with all of the Land raiders. Fix this and allot of complaints about them will probably disappear.

[Kvek]

Not really
waiting for a LRR is almost all the time a bad choice, considering you can get one pred 50x faster, and then a second one almost for the cost of one LRR

[saltychipmunk]

Not really
waiting for a LRR is almost all the time a bad choice, considering you can get one pred 50x faster, and then a second one almost for the cost of one LRR

that is what it all boils down too , are the landraiders worth two units?

when you take into account it cant really kite and it cant really disengage ..... I am leaning to no....

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Not really
waiting for a LRR is almost all the time a bad choice, considering you can get one pred 50x faster, and then a second one almost for the cost of one LRR

that is what it all boils down too , are the landraiders worth two units?

when you take into account it cant really kite and it cant really disengage ..... I am leaning to no....

In resources cost could be more efficient to buy two Chaos Predators instead of one Land Raider Phobos. You can upgrade one to MoT if you need hard AV and the other to MoN/MoK if you need more anti-infantry damage.

The problem? Two Chaos Predators cost 36 pop, meanwhile one Land Raider Phobos costs "only" 20 pop.

Not mention that if you want to specialized the Chaos Predators, you have to spend additional resources for the Marks. And maybe you have a heavy T2 army and don't have enough pop for two Chaos Predators.

This without mention other differents issues.

[saltychipmunk]

You make good points , but you don't have to invest in marks , and preds are atleast some what mobile , making them somewhat easier to keep safe , and two units is usually preferable to 1 slow unit.


plus this is about initial cost . the land raider cant even be upgraded , non upgraded preds aren't terrible.

If you are rolling a heavy t2 army , it stands to reason you wont have the resources
for the landraider.

unless you really are crushing your enemy , but if that is the case the phobos is kind of a victory dance rather than an effective weapon.

it isnt really like a bb which can really have a concrete strategy built around rushing for it.

[Nurland]

If you are rolling a heavy t2 army , it stands to reason you wont have the resources for the landraider.

Following that logic, no T2 heavy army can field any super units.

Why the hell should a 700/200/20 investment be a better or even pretty much as good as 900/250/36 investment that requires more micro? (upgraded Preds would be 1100+++/310+/36). So how exactly does one afford two predators but not LRP?

This is not to say that I think LRP is an excellent unit but comparing it with two Predators and complaining that it doesn't perform on the same level is not reasonable.

[Torpid]

The land raider phobos beats two tzeentch preds anyway and has higher burst damage. In most scenarios, except vs IG/eldar I would prefer a phobos to a couple of predators assuming I could get either instantly.

[saltychipmunk]

If you are rolling a heavy t2 army , it stands to reason you wont have the resources for the landraider.

Following that logic, no T2 heavy army can field any super units.

Why the hell should a 700/200/20 investment be a better or even pretty much as good as 900/250/36 investment that requires more micro? (upgraded Preds would be 1100+++/310+/36). So how exactly does one afford two predators but not LRP?

This is not to say that I think LRP is an excellent unit but comparing it with two Predators and complaining that it doesn't perform on the same level is not reasonable.

It is a matter of how you frame the question. can a t2 heavy army field a super unit eventually? sure absolutely. can a t2 heavy army rush a super unit? not so much no you can atleast start a dual pred build with the first pred at a little over half the cost of the land raider.

timing is important as we all know and having to wait for two units worth of resources can be a considerable risk in of itself.

its also about pacing , 2 preds are more expensive undeniable you got me there , but a 2 pred build can be started much earlier than a build involving a super unit thus allowing the build to impact the game faster which can sometimes lead to the game ending before said super unit hits the field.

after all a 2 pred build starts .. with the first pred

[Panda]

Rushing T3 and getting a super unit out is only really viable when you are already so far ahead and would likely push him out of the game by going for more T2, or when your opponent is not good enough to realise and push his advantage whilst you are teching and saving.

[saltychipmunk]

indeed hence why most people refer to super units as a kind of victory dance over a viable strategy .

[Torpid]

You guys are aware of something called turtling right?

Like, it's possible for me to play the mek and wing it to t2 to get double Deff Dreads before you reach t2 on a dakka dakka dakka mek, 2x fully upgraded shootas+sluggas even if you go for a heavy t1 and try to get my gens. It's a risky strategy and one that typically works better against poor players, but it's still certainly very possible to pull it off against high level players if you know how to do it.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

turtling doesn't work very well in dow2, especially early on, especially in 1v1s.

[Torpid]

It can do, especially in 1v1, on a big map when you have a teleporting/infiltrating hero. However it also depends on the MU.